[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[GenyaArikado]

Yeah she's kinda like Catherine with better PR (even being a foreigner). Unlike her she's basically Portugal's literal queen mother so yeah, i hope no goes sHE IsnT PORTuGesE

I didn't find her on my own, a portuguese person suggested her to me. I hope Firaxis did tho if they do make Portugal as she does make me excited about them as a Civ, unlike Maria

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

Well, this is where we get into the nuance of *the developer’s implementation* versus what we fans consider. They clearly made Siam in Civ V Sukhothai empire distinct from Ayutthaya Kingdom. So it’s clear that they have parsed out the nuance between them...

Speaking here as a historian and anthropologist of Thailand and not as someone working for Firaxis, I'll say that I think Ayutthaya has more of a claim to Siam than Sukhothai does. Sukhothai was independent of Siam for a long time and was more in the northern Thai cultural sphere than in the Siamese cultural sphere. As Lanna (Chiang Mai) and Siam (Ayutthaya) competed, eventually Ayutthaya absorbed Sukhothai. And, a long time later, Siam absorbed Lanna as well (although technically speaking those areas are not "Siamese" in the sense of "speaking Siamese Thai").

In the reign of Rama IV, Sukhothai was resurrected to be emblematic of a pre-Khmer "Thai-ness", so that's why it's often considered to be the first Thai state... it's not technically the first Siamese state (that's Ayutthaya), but for people trying to write a national history, it often is used like that.

But what's "Siamese?" It's a good question. These days I use it to refer to states in the Chao Phraya valley from Ayutthaya onward, or to refer to the language we might also call Central Thai. The Internet has simple answers ("it means 'dark!' It means 'golden!' It comes from a Portuguese uptake of a Chinese word!), the truth of which nobody knows. The Khmer identified Siamese subjects in their writing, so we have that, and Chinese sources were calling Siamese "syan". And, further, there seems to be a link between Shan and "Syan" (the Shan are a Tai-speaking people in the north of Burma, related to the people in Chiang Mai). The simple truth is that many people in that region until the colonial era did not think in terms of ethnicity in the same way that European colonizers did.

So... is Ayutthaya Siam? It's a name that was used by outsiders first, and only really taken up later (1700s-1800s) in Siamese history by Siamese themselves. The residents of Ayutthaya would have referred to the city as their identity (i.e. khon [person] ayutthaya, and not khon Siam. Sukhothai residents would certainly not have used the word siam). Think of words like "Maya," "Indonesia" or "India" here. It's an abstraction, that takes a particular vantage point and looks backwards. In retrospect, can we use the word? I think so, with regards to Ayutthaya. Sukhothai... maybe. But we'd need to ask ourselves why we're using that word, and not mueang [city, state, polity] sukhothai instead. Are they both Thai states? Sorta as well - that word, too is new-ish. Certianly they were a key building block to the present-day Thai state. Are they Tai states? Definitely, if we see "Tai" as meaning the larger ethnic category (including Shan, Lanna, Siam, Lao, Zhuang, etc).

I think there would have been better choices for Siam, aside from Ramkhamhaeng (sukritact's mods are on point here), but he'd be on "the list" were I to make such a thing.

TLDR: Ayutthaya is more Siamese than Sukhothai, although Siam as Siam really gets into its own groove a little later.

 

[Yudhisthira]

I

My point was Nalanda was at least under the influence of Chandragupta and the Mauryan empire,

Nalanda under Mauryan Empire was of little importance though, most probably a Jaina Shrine. It only became important after establishment of Mahavihara there by Kumaragupta (Gupta Emperor) in 5th century.

The only ones that puzzle me is Nalanda.
To me Nalanda should have probably just been Somapura, which is located in the Bengal region of Bangladesh, instead of making it a city-state located inside of a civ India, already in the game.

Somapura though today falls in modern nation state of Bangladesh,I highly doubt how much of separate Bengali identity existed back then.
In addition both Somapura & Nalanda(monasteries) were established by Kings,were under their patronage I.e not a very good reason to make them city state IMO.
I believe a city(to be a city state) should be of political importance/independence(even for short period would do),certain features which make them at least somewhat autonomous like currency. & that's why Nalanda,Sompura looks poor choice to me.
I think cities like Kanyakabuja i.e. modern Kannauj(from Kannauj Triangle) or like Ujjain,Kasi(who issued their own currency) etc r better options.

 

[sweetbrown89]

Speaking here as a historian and anthropologist of Thailand and not as someone working for Firaxis, I'll say that I think Ayutthaya has more of a claim to Siam than Sukhothai does. Sukhothai was independent of Siam for a long time and was more in the northern Thai cultural sphere than in the Siamese cultural sphere. As Lanna (Chiang Mai) and Siam (Ayutthaya) competed, eventually Ayutthaya absorbed Sukhothai. And, a long time later, Siam absorbed Lanna as well (although technically speaking those areas are not "Siamese" in the sense of "speaking Siamese Thai").

In the reign of Rama IV, Sukhothai was resurrected to be emblematic of a pre-Khmer "Thai-ness", so that's why it's often considered to be the first Thai state... it's not technically the first Siamese state (that's Ayutthaya), but for people trying to write a national history, it often is used like that.

But what's "Siamese?" It's a good question. These days I use it to refer to states in the Chao Phraya valley from Ayutthaya onward, or to refer to the language we might also call Central Thai. The Internet has simple answers ("it means 'dark!' It means 'golden!' It comes from a Portuguese uptake of a Chinese word!), the truth of which nobody knows. The Khmer identified Siamese subjects in their writing, so we have that, and Chinese sources were calling Siamese "syan". And, further, there seems to be a link between Shan and "Syan" (the Shan are a Tai-speaking people in the north of Burma, related to the people in Chiang Mai). The simple truth is that many people in that region until the colonial era did not think in terms of ethnicity in the same way that European colonizers did.

So... is Ayutthaya Siam? It's a name that was used by outsiders first, and only really taken up later (1700s-1800s) in Siamese history by Siamese themselves. The residents of Ayutthaya would have referred to the city as their identity (i.e. khon [person] ayutthaya, and not khon Siam. Sukhothai residents would certainly not have used the word siam). Think of words like "Maya," "Indonesia" or "India" here. It's an abstraction, that takes a particular vantage point and looks backwards. In retrospect, can we use the word? I think so, with regards to Ayutthaya. Sukhothai... maybe. But we'd need to ask ourselves why we're using that word, and not mueang [city, state, polity] sukhothai instead. Are they both Thai states? Sorta as well - that word, too is new-ish. Certianly they were a key building block to the present-day Thai state. Are they Tai states? Definitely, if we see "Tai" as meaning the larger ethnic category (including Shan, Lanna, Siam, Lao, Zhuang, etc).

I think there would have been better choices for Siam, aside from Ramkhamhaeng (sukritact's mods are on point here), but he'd be on "the list" were I to make such a thing.

TLDR: Ayutthaya is more Siamese than Sukhothai, although Siam as Siam really gets into its own groove a little later.

Yes, a clear distinction, albeit backwards in implementation

 

[AntSou]

Did not get gauls, and expected Assyria over Babylon, but I was generally close?

I also expected Assyria over Babylon, probably was wishful thinking, and Gaul was unexpected.

I think literally nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition Gauls.

but there is still no Vienna

In honesty, this makes me sweat a bit. Maria Theresa about to pull a Gaul on us and parachute out of nowhere.

 

[sweetbrown89]

So my latest analysis is an enumerated chart

Staple slots are indicated inside parentheses

*Current pattern* is that (outside of the Launch group, counting the Aztecs as Launch, seeing as they were available day one — given a preorder bonus) no more than 2 slots from a single Generation are added during that expansion

Macedon, Nubia, and Scotland are Split Civs, so I have set them aside, since they’re a bit of an enigmatic category

The most popular 2 projected slots are in white, highlighting that Portugal would take up a 3rd slot while Morocco / Venice / The Shoshone are a missing slot

I decided to defer to Occam’s Razor and confirmed The Cree as the “Native American” slot given that previous iterations were The Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) and The Lakota (Sioux) and slanted out Civs are chosen by regional proximity — using the attached image as a reference

 

[GenyaArikado]

The visual of Maria Theresa falling down the sky using her dress as parachute is really something

 

[The Kingmaker]

I think literally nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition Gauls.

<Raises hand> I was anticipating a deblobbed Celtic civ for a very long time.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

<Raises hand> I was anticipating a deblobbed Celtic civ for a very long time.

Good for you, pal. I was as well.

 

[AntSou]

I totally forgot about the celtic deblob request, which is actually fairly common.

 

[Zaarin]

I think literally nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition Gauls.

I think quite a few wanted them, me among them, but I don't think very many people expected them.

In honesty, this makes me sweat a bit. Maria Theresa about to pull a Gaul on us and parachute out of nowhere.

Yes, please.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Idk if she has been brought up, but we could have Luisa de Guzman if they are the civ indeed

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luisa_de_Guzmán

Oh my god I love her hair. But I think that may ultimately prevent us from getting her since Kristina already brought the hair game.

She would be a great choice, although if we are holding that most of the leaders personify their civs' playstyles, I don't quite see her syncing up with an "exploration/trading" depiction of Portugal. But hey, I'll take a totally different kind of Portugal if I can just have that hair in the game.

So my latest analysis is an enumerated chart

Staple slots are indicated inside parentheses

*Current pattern* is that (outside of the Launch group, counting the Aztecs as Launch, seeing as they were available day one — given a preorder bonus) no more than 2 slots from a single Generation are added during that expansion

Macedon, Nubia, and Scotland are Split Civs, so I have set them aside, since they’re a bit of an enigmatic category

The most popular 2 projected slots are in white, highlighting that Portugal would take up a 3rd slot while Morocco / Venice / The Shoshone are a missing slot

I decided to defer to Occam’s Razor and confirmed The Cree as the “Native American” slot given that previous iterations were The Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) and The Lakota (Sioux) and slanted out Civs are chosen by regional proximity — using the attached image as a reference

I love that you theorize as much as I do.

This is basically in-line with my observation that we effectively have four slots that were built out in previous games that have not returned or been replaced: Portugal, a Maghrebi civ, a western US civ, and an Italian civ.

If we ended at NFP, I believe this would be the first game in the series not to return or at least slant out/refine every region from the previous game, with the exception of the Hittites.

I'm also presuming this analysis doesn't include Gran Colombia or Vietnam? I count a total of seven ascended/unique civs, possibly six if we entertain the idea that the Mapuche are really just a heavily geographically shifted Shoshone slot.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

In honesty, this makes me sweat a bit. Maria Theresa about to pull a Gaul on us and parachute out of nowhere.

I wouldn't mind one bit.

<Raises hand> I was anticipating a deblobbed Celtic civ for a very long time.

I totally forgot about the celtic deblob request, which is actually fairly common.

To me it was pretty much confirmed that the Celts would be deblobbed when they released Scotland in R&F. I just didn't expect to get a second pre-Medieval Celtic group as well in the same game.

 

[Zaarin]

To me it was pretty much confirmed that the Celts would be deblobbed when they released Scotland in R&F. I just didn't expect to get a second pre-Medieval Celtic group as well in the same game.

Same. As un-Celtic as Civ6's Scotland was, I took for granted they would be our "deblobbed Celt" representation in Civ6.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Same. As un-Celtic as Civ6's Scotland was, I took for granted they would be our "deblobbed Celt" representation in Civ6.

And in doing so, revived hope for Austria, and, surprisingly, Hawaii.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

And in doing so, revived hope for Austria, and, surprisingly, Hawaii.

The difference between Gaul and Scotland compared to and Hawaii and the Maori I feel is different though.

Maori plays like you would think a typical Polynesia civ would, such as starting in the middle of the ocean. There was enough design space to differentiate Gaul and Scotland, considering Scotland was basically another British civ.

Won't disagree about Austria though, even if they are just as unlikely considering we have HRE inspired Germany and Hungary. We need some civ to make Great Musicians great again.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

The difference between Gaul and Scotland compared to and Hawaii and the Maori I feel is different though.

Maori plays like you would think a typical Polynesia civ would, such as starting in the middle of the ocean. There was enough design space to differentiate Gaul and Scotland, considering Scotland was basically another British civ.

Won't disagree about Austria though, even if they are just as unlikely considering we have HRE inspired Germany and Hungary. We need some civ to make Great Musicians great again.

I would agree that they are more mechanically differentiated.

But then again I can imagine a Hawaii civ with a volcano bias, tourism bonuses, and a pacifist strategy. Hawaii really doesn't need to be wayfaring. Although I think it is also a prime candidate for a clone or semi-clone version of the Maori and could also have an ocean start bias.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

But then again I can imagine a Hawaii civ with a volcano bias, tourism bonuses, and a pacifist strategy. Hawaii really doesn't need to be wayfaring. Although I think it is also a prime candidate for a clone or semi-clone version of the Maori and could also have an ocean start bias.

Well I am of the opinion that Hawaii would probably need to be more wayfaring civ than the Maori which is why I don't see them, or any other Pacific Islander culture, getting in.

That being said the Maori already have pretty good tourism bonuses and sort of a pacifist strategy, at least in terms of them being the environmentalist civ, not the Haka War Dancing Toa part.

And if we are talking about a volcano bias it should go to the Maori too because Aotearoa is the home of Mt. Doom.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

And if we are talking about a volcano bias it should go to the Maori too because Aotearoa is the home of Mt. Doom.

Filthy hobbitses.

Yeah, even though I can very easily imagine a Hawaii different from the Maori, I don't really have a strong desire to see them in the game except maybe as something memed into existence by CBR (which, it seems Vietnam already kinda got that distinction). The return of Kamehameha or the addition of Liliuokalani would be cool, ukelele and steel guitar would be a fun addition to the soundtrack, but it all would feel very "bonus content" as opposed to something that felt missing from the game.

 

[GenyaArikado]

Honestly i don't know in which Civ could you put her even but can we get Lady Dimitrescu as a leader? I feel like that's important