[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

The Floating/Water Market is something very common in SAE, especially in Thailand. I'm East Asian, Thailand is one of the top tourist destination in the East Asian tourism market, and everyone I know who visited Thailand had spent at least one afternoon in a floating market in Bangkok.

Oddly enough, I've never been to the floating market [talaat nam], although I've lived in Thailand for many years (but as a researcher, not really as a tourist).

The idea is simple, and the tourist factor is really only relevant in the past twenty years. Before that, cities like Bangkok and Manila and others were largely based around canals. It is just plain easier to move a lot of stuff on water than it is by road. And, since everyone's house was on a canal back in the day, boats laden with fruit or vegetables or whatever would drift on up to your dock and call out to you. So putting it as a commercial hub would make a lot of sense. Is it uniquely Siamese? Not unique, and not present in all of the region (only really in canal-based towns), but distinctive, sure.

 

[Unmitigated Gaul]

Gold for kills is the main thing for the Mandekalu Cavalry already, so I don't see that happening to another UU.

Genoese crossbowmen were used for sieging cities, such as Jerusalem in the Crusades, so I could see something along the lines of a unique ranged unit having more combat strength against cities. Maybe even being able to attack while embarked considering their role in naval battles as well?

Good point.

That said the Ottomans are much more suited as a renaissance era siege Civ than the Italians. The Italians are much better suited as a turtle Civ with their emphasis on strong fortifications and wall cities.

I think the fun of the faction would be to send your soldiers off to fight in foreign wars and enrich your empire in the process. Maybe give some sort of economic bonus to participating in a war with an Ally that works like a scored competition where you get gold for keeping troops in enemy territory or something? Actually that doesn’t really sound fun and sounds easy to game. But definitely should be a bonus for sending your troops off to fight in Germany or the Holy Land or whatever.

Maybe the Genoese crossbow has extra strength v cities and generates gold(or maybe a relic for a foreign capitol?) when adjacent to a conquered city? That actually works well with all their crusading too.

So while the troops fight in wars overseas to make money, the home front emphasizes great people generation, and explodes to victory through great engineers, scientists, merchants, painters, etc

There should also be an emphasis on relic use or generation. I think bonus GPP generation for cities with relics would be a fun bonus.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Oddly enough, I've never been to the floating market [talaat nam], although I've lived in Thailand for many years (but as a researcher, not really as a tourist).

The idea is simple, and the tourist factor is really only relevant in the past twenty years. Before that, cities like Bangkok and Manila and others were largely based around canals. It is just plain easier to move a lot of stuff on water than it is by road. And, since everyone's house was on a canal back in the day, boats laden with fruit or vegetables or whatever would drift on up to your dock and call out to you. So putting it as a commercial hub would make a lot of sense. Is it uniquely Siamese? Not unique, and not present in all of the region (only really in canal-based towns), but distinctive, sure.

I wonder if a form of Buddhist Temple or Monastery would be more unique to a Thai civ

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

I wonder if a form of Buddhist Temple or Monastery would be more unique to a Thai civ

I think the secret here is that really unique stuff is going to be hard to find in the world; people just like to borrow. Floating Market works fine, I think. A (Theravada) Buddhist temple would be a feature shared between Thailand (Siam), Burma, Laos (Lan Xang), Cambodia (Khmer).

 

[Gulathar]

Finland Civilization with tundra bonus like Russia and Canada but also likes to fight. Unique unit: Sissi infantry. Unique improvement: sauna. Double leader: Mannerheim for domination and Kekkonen for sim.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I wonder if a form of Buddhist Temple or Monastery would be more unique to a Thai civ

To be fair a Prasat, which is what the Khmer has, is also found in Thailand and obviously the Khmer had a big influence on the spread of it though @Andrew Johnson [FXS] can correct me if I'm wrong.
For that reason I was kind of certain that the Khmer was supposed to represent the mainland SEA civ. Of course Vietnam happily proved me wrong, but even so Vietnam has been part of the Sinosphere, rather than the Indosphere like the other SEA nations.

If the Khmer had gotten the Baray, which I would consider it more unique, I do think there might have been a possibility of getting Thailand with a unique temple or monastery. But I'd still choose the Floating Market as a unique CH for reasons. I feel like Khmer, and possibly Burma, are much easier to make them into the default Medieval religious civ from SEA, while a Siam civ could differentiate itself and make it more Industrial era oriented with a cultural and economic playstyle.

I think the secret here is that really unique stuff is going to be hard to find in the world; people just like to borrow. Floating Market works fine, I think. A (Theravada) Buddhist temple would be a feature shared between Thailand (Siam), Burma, Laos (Lan Xang), Cambodia (Khmer).

I noticed in Humankind that certain cultures do have shared features, such as the Olmec, Maya and Aztecs all have specific looking ballcourts in their cities. That would translate well to Civ too where arenas for Mesoamerican cultures could look like the ball courts, opening up the possibilities for other unique infrastructures for them.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

To be fair a Prasat, which is what the Khmer has, is also found in Thailand and obviously the Khmer had a big influence on the spread of it though @Andrew Johnson [FXS] can correct me if I'm wrong.
Of course Vietnam happily proved me wrong, but even so Vietnam has been part of the Sinosphere, rather than the Indosphere like the other SEA nations.

If the Khmer had gotten the Baray, which I would consider it more unique, I do think there might have been a possibility of getting Thailand with a unique temple or monastery. But I'd still choose the Floating Market as a unique CH for reasons. I feel like Khmer, and possibly Burma, are much easier to make them into the default Medieval religious civ from SEA, while a Siam civ could differentiate itself and make it more Industrial era oriented with a cultural and economic playstyle.
.

Absolutely correct re: Sanskrit-influenced regions and Chinese-influenced regions. And Cambodia (Khmer) was one of the early empires of the region (along with Mon, Cham) and were very influential on Siam and Laos.
The baray of Angkor were pretty amazing and pretty unique. And the words: prasat, stupa, wat all describe things that would be common to the region (though Burmese would use different words; also stupa = ceti or cetiya), but all vital to those societies.

 

[Henri Christophe]

What about Argentina?

No argentina for while, they have a lack of good leaders

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

No argentina for while, they have a lack of good leaders

I think for Civ 7 Jose de San Martin has a good shot, if Eva Peron is considered controversial.

He'd be no different from Joan of Arc or Ba Trieu, never ruling but influential in being the face of whatever civilization they come from.

 

[Henri Christophe]

I think for Civ 7 Jose de San Martin has a good shot, if Eva Peron is considered controversial.

He'd be no different from Joan of Arc or Ba Trieu, never ruling but influential in being the face of whatever civilization they come from.

General San Martin also no was a leader of Argentina.
For me the best option is Bartolomeu Mitre, the president of Argentina who finish the civil war and won the war against Paraguay

 

[BuchiTaton]

I noticed in Humankind that certain cultures do have shared features, such as the Olmec, Maya and Aztecs all have specific looking ballcourts in their cities. That would translate well to Civ too where arenas for Mesoamerican cultures could look like the ball courts, opening up the possibilities for other unique infrastructures for them.

For CIV7
> Aztec (Culture)
- Calmécac college

> Maya (Sciene)
- Astronomical observatory

> Zapotec (Religion)
- Mezcal destillery

> Totonac (Diplomacy)
- Voladores square

> Purepecha (Militar)
- Yacatas temple

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

General San Martin also no was a leader of Argentina.
For me the best option is Bartolomeu Mitre, the president of Argentina who finish the civil war and won the war against Paraguay

No he didn't officially lead Argentina, but Ba Trieu didn't officially lead Vietnam either.

Both are considered national heroes of those respective countries though, which honestly makes him a possible contender. That's probably the only way to get him in the game because I don't expect a separate Peru civ any sooner.

 

[j51]

People have made good points about the French leaders and Salic Law limiting France's choice of good female leaders. In terms of European civs, I'd say France is one of the last to draw female leaders from, as Civ 6 demonstrated. Next go around I'd really hope to see Henri IV - he'd just be a lot of fun and then a more bullyish type for a second French leader: either Louis XIV or Napoleon (he is a staple).

I also think Civ 6 really limited itself on female leaders by avoiding the staples of Catherine the Great and Isabella. They really should be in every iteration just like Alexander and Genghis.

Two reasons I'd love to see Benin for a civ from coastal West Africa are that Idia is a great female leader pick and Benin could have a bronze works unique building that produces a unique great work type: Benin Bronzes.

Another female leader that the next iteration really shouldn't ignore is Margaret I, ruler of all Scandinavia.

 

[SirMediocrity]

Another female leader that the next iteration really shouldn't ignore is Margaret I, ruler of all Scandinavia.

"Margaret I rules Denmark, and Margaret I rules Sweden, AND Margaret I rules Norway in Civilization VI."

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

People have made good points about the French leaders and Salic Law limiting France's choice of good female leaders. In terms of European civs, I'd say France is one of the last to draw female leaders from, as Civ 6 demonstrated. Next go around I'd really hope to see Henri IV - he'd just be a lot of fun and then a more bullyish type for a second French leader: either Louis XIV or Napoleon (he is a staple).

I agree. Civ 6 was okay to try and experiment with them but I'm in agreement in going back to Louis XIV.

I also think Civ 6 really limited itself on female leaders by avoiding the staples of Catherine the Great and Isabella. They really should be in every iteration just like Alexander and Genghis.

I don't mind the break of Catherine and Isabella. I think Phillip the II and Peter the Great are just as capable leaders for those civs. I do find it curious that they took a break from Elizabeth I after she was the staple of England from the beginning.

 

[FinalDoomsday]

I like having a break from the same leaders when a civ has a lot of reasonable contenders. It was refreshing not seeing Elizabeth I yet again and having different leaders for the old guard civs helps to keep them from feeling too stale.

 

[ManoftheHour333]

My general idea with this "Birthplace of the Renaissance" ability is every city that you found, after the capital, gets a bonus depending on what type of specialty district you construct first.
I don't have any specifics but if you build either a harbor or CH first in a city you might get some kind of trade/gold bonus. Maybe you can basically build a "Guilded Vault" and get those abilities by default.
For Trade cities- Banks yield two culture and gain an extra trade route capacity when built in a city with a shipyard.

Also for cultural cities Art Museums can yield gold based on theming bonuses. So if you build a Theater Square in a city first, it's an incentive to go for Art Museums.


Yeah I guess a unique ironclad to me doesn't feel very Italian, unlike the Genoese Crossbowmen.
I think if Italy were to get an Industrial era UU, the Alpini, would be the best bet but they probably wouldn't really be synergetic with the rest of the bonuses.
I'd like the Crossbowmen or the Condotierri. Something interesting is maybe they could only be "purchasable" by gold considering they were mercenaries and could be loaned to your allies.

Yeah I remember you Renaissance city state ability UA idea and like it a lot-that should be the way to go! I'm thinking that once the city build the first specialty district, it should get double GPP of that type, and gain a +1 bonus of that type (culture, science, production, etc.) when any district building in the city is constructed. It really makes it so that each of your cities specials in something which is real cool and changes how you play! And it can be really sucky when your enemies know this and steal away your science city XD

BUT I'd add another aspect to this...+1 trade route capacity for each type of specialty city. So assuming you make your cities diverse, you'd be able to net an additional +6-8 trade routes (Not sure about encampment, GP or DP but it'd be cool for them to count). This would solve the economic issues slightly while retaining a unique Italian feel. And it'd force you to play differently/start your cities with different districts in order to get your full bonus so that's fun : )

Tbh, theming bonus abilities are kinda boring and more importantly, they depend too much on your neighbors (For art anyway) which can suck. I'd rather them get a unique TS with either more diverse GPP a'la Russia's Lavra, or gain gold+faith from just having great works in their cities (Maybe both?). The latter would make a lot of sense given how much patronage Italy's nobles/ the church did from the 1400-1800s.

On the Ironclad...you're right that it's not super Italian but tbh, besides some kind of US special unit...would any civ have a good ironclad replacement? And I would like to see every unit get some love...as you were saying it really is the ONLY ONE now... We could make the LUA simpler (Just the city-state buying and nothing else) and give Italy 2 unique units...a Genovese crossbow (I'd rather have crossbows to a boring musketman UU given how different the Voi Chen is...) and VEII's ironclad. There's loads of precedent for this and given that Basil II got this treatment despite his ability being so insanely strong, I think we could swing it. I mean VEII was from Sardenia-Piedmont which knew a thing or two about navies...

I agree. Civ 6 was okay to try and experiment with them but I'm in agreement in going back to Louis XIV.


I don't mind the break of Catherine and Isabella. I think Phillip the II and Peter the Great are just as capable leaders for those civs. I do find it curious that they took a break from Elizabeth I after she was the staple of England from the beginning.

I kind of like Vicky leading England better (And wouldn't mind her returning) as it does harken back to a hugely important period of British history-Pax Britaininca and the Victorian Age. Plus I like the more colonial play for England as a whole...too bad Civ VI's colonial play and naval combat kinda sucks...but I digress. But if they have to change it up, I wouldn't mind having more trade agreements with Elizabeths's England XD.

But in Civ VII FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY...give England it's Ship of the Line back. I get the Elizabeth I reference with the Sea Dogs but they suck...and England is supposed rule the waves with them? But then they give the dutch the big powerful frigate...when they have NO bonuses to building ships. It's so stupid and I think they should just go back to SotL and Sea Beggars from Civ V. Made more sense gameplay-wise and was just straight up more fitting imo.

I agree that Peter is a great leader for Russia. Cathy is great (Pun unintended), but it was nice to see out favorite beard-hating westernizer leading Russia through one of it's golden ages. Too bad Charles XII wasn't leading Sweden-that would have been super fun to see.

For Spain on the other hand...just give us Izzy back. I think it was hugely missed opportunity to add in more female leaders-especially considering Portugal's best leaders are male and...I think keeping Portugal male and Spain female with Izzy would be more equal. Philip II wasn't even that great of a spanish leader-did some great things with that armada of his for sure. I don't understand how they chose the guy who bankrupted a country, nearly destroyed it's vassal's (Portugal's) empire through wars, and lost most of it's fleet/naval supremacy over the leader who made Spain...well Spain! Nevermind the beginnings of the Age of Exploration with Columbus...Izzy I >>>>>Phillip II

 

[Zaarin]

Charles Martel may have led Francia as opposed to France, but without him, there might not be a France.

I tend to favor the civ games using a monarch to represent France, as that is the system of government most people in New France were familiar with. Most French colonies in the USA and Canada were populated by families who left prior to the revolution. My own ancestors left in the 1600`s, so they never knew anything but the monarchy.

Napoleon was important, but he wasn't around long enough to outweigh the contributions of the Frank's and the Bourbon dynasty to France.

To be clear, I wasn't advocating for Napoleon. I think he's boring and has been done to death. I just think Francia and France are too different to be merged into the same civilization, just like the Anglo-Saxons and England.

Better than chiny-chin-chin from the Spanish and the Hasgburg.

Spoiler :

It was refreshing not seeing Elizabeth I yet again

She's one recurring leader I don't mind being infinitely recurring. On the one hand, she's just one of my favorites; on the other, Civ has yet to portray her right so they need to keep trying until they do.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Yeah I remember you Renaissance city state ability UA idea and like it a lot-that should be the way to go! I'm thinking that once the city build the first specialty district, it should get double GPP of that type, and gain a +1 bonus of that type (culture, science, production, etc.) when any district building in the city is constructed. It really makes it so that each of your cities specials in something which is real cool and changes how you play! And it can be really sucky when your enemies know this and steal away your science city XD

Paired with a city-state collecting bonus, like Risorgimento, it would be interesting indeed going after particular city-states for the bonuses like a cultural city-state will always build a TS as their first one, scientific city-states will always build a campus etc.

Even if a harbor is built first on a coastal city it's still not bad.

On the Ironclad...you're right that it's not super Italian but tbh, besides some kind of US special unit...would any civ have a good ironclad replacement? And I would like to see every unit get some love...as you were saying it really is the ONLY ONE now... We could make the LUA simpler (Just the city-state buying and nothing else) and give Italy 2 unique units...a Genovese crossbow (I'd rather have crossbows to a boring musketman UU given how different the Voi Chen is...) and VEII's ironclad. There's loads of precedent for this and given that Basil II got this treatment despite his ability being so insanely strong, I think we could swing it. I mean VEII was from Sardenia-Piedmont which knew a thing or two about navies...

For some reason I thought the Turtle ship from Civ5 was a unique ironclad, I guess not.
Though I'd argue it could have been an early ironclad replacement, making the window for Korean caravels pretty small.

For Civ 7 I'd like Sejong to come back with the Hwacha as his UU (it was under his reign that the first prototypes were built), the Turtle Ship as the civ UU, and a Seowon UD that replaces the campus but provides culture instead of science.

I kind of like Vicky leading England better (And wouldn't mind her returning) as it does harken back to a hugely important period of British history-Pax Britaininca and the Victorian Age. Plus I like the more colonial play for England as a whole...too bad Civ VI's colonial play and naval combat kinda sucks...but I digress. But if they have to change it up, I wouldn't mind having more trade agreements with Elizabeths's England XD.

Don't get me wrong I like Victoria, and she was a nice change. But for Civ 7 I wouldn't mind having Elizabeth back and she could lead with Victoria, representing different periods of England's power. I'd be fine with Victoria being the more conquest focused leader expanding the British Empire if Elizabeth can go the Elizabethan Renaissance cultural route.

But in Civ VII FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY...give England it's Ship of the Line back. I get the Elizabeth I reference with the Sea Dogs but they suck...and England is supposed rule the waves with them? But then they give the dutch the big powerful frigate...when they have NO bonuses to building ships. It's so stupid and I think they should just go back to SotL and Sea Beggars from Civ V. Made more sense gameplay-wise and was just straight up more fitting imo.

I think the plan was to use the Sea Dogs to capture and make a powerful navy, but it wasn't the best implementation.

For Spain on the other hand...just give us Izzy back. I think it was hugely missed opportunity to add in more female leaders-especially considering Portugal's best leaders are male and...I think keeping Portugal male and Spain female with Izzy would be more equal. Philip II wasn't even that great of a spanish leader-did some great things with that armada of his for sure. I don't understand how they chose the guy who bankrupted a country, nearly destroyed it's vassal's (Portugal's) empire through wars, and lost most of it's fleet/naval supremacy over the leader who made Spain...well Spain! Nevermind the beginnings of the Age of Exploration with Columbus...Izzy I >>>>>Phillip II

I'm fine with Isabella returning too. Phillip II was nice because I feel like they wanted to try doing something different and they would have played too similar being in the same game.
Funnily enough both Portugal and Spain were ruled by females however in Civ 5, not contrasting at all either.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

People have made good points about the French leaders and Salic Law limiting France's choice of good female leaders. In terms of European civs, I'd say France is one of the last to draw female leaders from, as Civ 6 demonstrated. Next go around I'd really hope to see Henri IV - he'd just be a lot of fun and then a more bullyish type for a second French leader: either Louis XIV or Napoleon (he is a staple).

I agree. Civ 6 was okay to try and experiment with them but I'm in agreement in going back to Louis XIV.

I like having a break from the same leaders when a civ has a lot of reasonable contenders. It was refreshing not seeing Elizabeth I yet again and having different leaders for the old guard civs helps to keep them from feeling too stale.

I also am for having new leaders for civs who have plethora of choices. Why are we forced to suffer through Napolen again and again? It's not like if France only had one or two decent leaders.

If we have a new leader for France, I'd want a brand. And if I consider Francis or Henri IV or even Louis IX as good choices, my favourite is no contest Louis XI. Not only was he a tremendous leader, but moreover he would have a great personality that Firaxis seems so fond of. Plus he would have a ridiculous hat, and funny hats are always welcome.

Come on, tell me that this guy wouldn't be a delight to animate/see animated and interact with.