[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Thenewwwguy]

For all the discussions about unique tech trees, I think we are facing a major problem, which is the very design of a tech tree.

I began to dislike it. Let's face it, it's completely ahistorical. Some prerequisites are simply untrue (you don't need to have money to decide to discover mathematics, and why would animal husbandry predate necessarily archery?). It's clearly based upon the eurocentric advancement of kowledge and technology, and even by those standards it's quite clumsy.

I hope for a complete overhaul on how scientific and sociological discoveries are made in 4X games, and I already thought of something:

Each "technology" would be kind of available right of the beginning, but unknown (like in the shuffle tech/civic trees). Each techology would exist in three states: unknown (you absolutely don't know what it is), mastered (you "discovered" it in the 4X game, so you enjoy the bonuses it gives) and known (you know the tech exist, but you haven't researched it yet). To go from "unknown" to "known", it would be based upon what is around you. If you have a lot of wild animals around you, the technology "animal husbandry" would probably goes from "unknown" to "known" because some guys in your empire would think "hey, wouldn't it be neat if we had control over those animals?".

Each technology would have, each turn (or each time limit for non-turn based 4X games), a chance to be mastered. This chance would be between 0 and 100% (no chance at all vs you're certain to master it the next turn/time unit).

The science output would not be beckers that fill a bigger becker than, when full, discover/master you a tech. It would just increase the chance of all (or some) techs to be mastered.

But this system would be very dynamic with how you play and your environment, not unlike how Eurekas and Inspirations work. For example, having access to the sea or a river would increase the chance of sailing techs to be discovered. Lots of things would help this way: mastering Chemistry would enhance the chances of discovering medical-related techs; having some stables would enhance your chances of discovring gunpowder. Having neighboring civs that have mastered the tech would also increase your chances, especially if you do some trade.
Important notes: a technology doesn't need to be "known" to be mastered. It would be like serendipity, or the discovery of quantas: nobody knew they existed before discovered them (unlike atoms, where the theory existed long before we prooved they exist).
Of course, we won't get rid completely of the prerequisites. The techs at the end of the tree would be very difficult to master, and might not give you any bonus at this moment (like discovering nuclear physics in the Bronze Age would be of no help). For example, to master Physics, Mathematics would be a prerequisite (meaning that without mathematics, physics will always have a 0% chance of being discovered).

Of course, to not let this completely passive, you'd have ways to influence your scientific research. First, building "science related" buildings would naturally increase the potential of discovering new techs. It can be pondered though: having a library would help you master mathematics and astronomy, but libraries aren't enough for high-tech technologies like nuclear physics for example. Once the "scientific method" mastered, you could also decide to focus your scientific efforts on one specific known technology, which would then greatly increase the chances of mastering it (at a money cost maybe). You could also finance "fundamental research" which does not focus on mastering a specific technology, but will increase the chances of unknown tech to become known.

I see a lot of advantages of this system. It's not just anymore a "fill your becker with smaller beckers until it's full, rince and repeat", you'd need to have actual strategies to got through the tech tree. How your expand your empire would have a direct impact, not just the numer of cities you plopped anywhere to have a new scientific district. It would also be more historical: a civ/faction in the mountains might not need to discover the wheel, but they will know how to build bridges much earlier since they need them to cross canyons and mountains. A completely inland empire would not have to research the completely useless Shipbuilding technology to be able to build buttress. Nomadic factions would laugh at irrigation, but would need animal husbandry and archery much earlier. You could discover writing without having the faintest idea what a pottery is, which (while not necessarily historical) could be feasible and should be feasible. Astronomy wouldn't be locked behind seafaring.

Each playthrough would be different, and really unique, reflecting the way you play. I don't know what you think about it, but I personally think that the tech tree model is old and it's great time we challenge it a little.

i really like this idea

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Have you seen the honeycomb tech tree idea? (Created by user lennongrad / Emrakul. Link here. No idea if he has an account on Civfanatics)

I love this idea, actually. Not only because it reminds me of some final fantasy license board nonsense, but because it condenses the tech tree into something you can view on a single screen. I really hate scrolling through that thing.

 

[AsH2]

..

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/research-and-tech-tree.622214/

 

[PhoenicianGold]

So I have decided that Chinguetti--if it represents any "kingdom/people" at all, given that Wolin, Nalanda, and Samarkand seem similarly disassociated--is really representing the Almoravids and western Arabic sphere more than it does the Berbers. Otherwise, it would have been a commercial city-state rather than a religious one.

Not that this really changes recent developments about the game likely ending with NFP, but theoretically I wouldn't think that Chinguetti would preclude a Berber/Numidia civ.

(and I guess by a related argument, Samarkand doesn't necessarily preclude the Timurids given that it could easily be replaced by Bukhara...but I think that represents more of a hurdle than Chinguetti does for Numidia)

Also, again, can I just bring everyone's attention back around to the fact that we have nothing representing western North America? Not even city-states like Mesa Verde or Hlgaagilda.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Also, again, can I just bring everyone's attention back around to the fact that we have nothing representing western North America? Not even city-states like Mesa Verde or Hlgaagilda.

I vote Sheet'ka as a cultural city-state with a crest pole UI for a city-state in the PNW. A Pueblo city-state makes sense too, even a scientific Cherokee one.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

I vote Sheet'ka as a cultural city-state with a crest pole UI for a city-state in the PNW. A Pueblo city-state makes sense too, even a scientific Cherokee one.

I suggest Wappatoo to represent the Chinook as a city-state, given it was the preceding settlement to Portland, OR and the largest city of the Chinook

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I suggest Wappatoo to represent the Chinook as a city-state, given it was the preceding settlement to Portland, OR and the largest city of the Chinook

Would you consider them to be a cultural city-state too? I guess that's my main reasoning is to get a totem/crest pole UI in the game, which is why I went with a Tlingit one.
I figured a Haida city-state would be militaristic.

 

[Henri Christophe]

North AMerica really needs more city states

 

[Zaarin]

Would you consider them to be a cultural city-state too? I guess that's my main reasoning is to get a totem/crest pole UI in the game, which is why I went with a Tlingit one.
I figured a Haida city-state would be militaristic.

I'd go with Mercantile. Without in any way suggesting the people of the PNW were peaceful, which they were not, their wars were highly ritualized, and I wouldn't call any of them "warlike" or "militant" in a Western sense. If anything, the Tlingit were more militant than the Haida, being often at war with the Inuit, whom they hated, and later with the Russians. I'd go with Mercantile for Haida, cultured for Tlingit. The Chinook aren't from the PNW in the first place; they're an interior tribe.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'd go with Mercantile. Without in any way suggesting the people of the PNW were peaceful, which they were not, their wars were highly ritualized, and I wouldn't call any of them "warlike" or "militant" in a Western sense. If anything, the Tlingit were more militant than the Haida, being often at war with the Inuit, whom they hated, and later with the Russians. I'd go with Mercantile for Haida, cultured for Tlingit.

I'd assumed militaristic considering they were known to be like the Vikings, but I guess trade makes sense too. Though like you mentioned for the Tlingit I'd prefer them being cultured if that gets us a crest pole unique improvement that provides culture based on the number of coastal tiles adjacent to it.

The Chinook aren't from the PNW in the first place; they're an interior tribe.

Everywhere I've seen the Chinook are referred as a PNW tribe. If I'm not mistaken I didn't think that being from the PNW meant that you only had to inhabit the coast?

 

[TeddyMain]

Everywhere I've seen the Chinook are referred as a PNW tribe. If I'm not mistaken I didn't think that being from the PNW meant that you only had to inhabit the coast?

They basically resided in Northern Oregon / Southern Washington, and some sources say they did inhabit the coast as well as farther inland. I'd say that definitely classifies them as a Pacific Northwest tribe.

 

[Zaarin]

Everywhere I've seen the Chinook are referred as a PNW tribe. If I'm not mistaken I didn't think that being from the PNW meant that you only had to inhabit the coast?

The Cascades, the Coastal Range, and other mountains that divided the coast from the interior were a major cultural divide. The Chinook and interior Salishan tribes had much more in common with Plateau tribes like the Nez Perce and the Blackfoot than with the coastal tribes.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Would you consider them to be a cultural city-state too? I guess that's my main reasoning is to get a totem/crest pole UI in the game, which is why I went with a Tlingit one.
I figured a Haida city-state would be militaristic.

i would go commercial. Chinook Jargon was developed as a trading language from Chinook being combined with various other languages, as just as an example of how the Chinook were very trading oriented

 

[Yudhisthira]

Originally posted on another forum then realized there r many potential new civs here so now posting it here.

So here is an Idea, since both names India & China in a way r western terms for both of these regions & not self identifiers, civ 7 can drop it & be free from modern national baggage these terms come with. (Moreover it less Eurocentrism )

Now we have 2 continous civilizations with a mainstream & many substream cultures.

So for China we have a mainstream culture
Zhongguo civ (which is a perfectly valid,historical term, so PRC may not mind such deblobing)
& many substreams which became lost or assimilated like Gauls in Europe.

Yunnan Civs (Dali,Nanzhao)
Manchurian Civ
Xinjiang,Tibet etc.

Similarly for India, a mainstream culture
Aryavarta civ

& substream cultures

Tamilkam civs
Gandhara civ
Ladakh, Assam(Kamarupa) civ

& may be Sindh & Bengal, if one think more one may get something out of Deccan also thou more difficult case.

 

[Henri Christophe]

So here is an Idea, since both names India & China in a way r western terms for both of these regions & not self identifiers, civ 7 can drop it & be free from modern national baggage these terms come with. (Moreover it less Eurocentrism )

If something is less eurocentric I appreciate, But I still thinking just India should be deblobed.
China should appear just as one country, this make possible sellings in China. China can have more alternative leaders than normal to solve this issue

 

[DWilson]

Can someone with better expertise explain why China is generally considered one continuous civilization?

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

Can someone with better expertise explain why China is generally considered one continuous civilization?

One could compare it with the title of "Rome" at different points in European history; how rulers from Byzantium to Aachen to Moscow constantly strove to call themselves "the new Rome" or the "Caesar/Kaiser/Tsar," etc., or how so many European (and American) capitals modeled themselves after Roman style. The reason why many rulers bargained so much to claim this title is that it carried immense symbolic weight - being the Holy Roman Emperor meant you were the defender of Christendom (ignoring for the moment the Orthodox). Even without the actual title, many rulers pronounce "a new Rome," "a city on a hill," "a First Consul," etc.

In China, the notion of being at the center, holding the Mandate of Heaven, etc., carried intense weight. This was something that could be usurped (that is, if the Mandate fell upon someone more worthy), but which never really disappeared. So even though there were civil wars, the capital moved, and new ethnic groups came and went, the idea that China always remains is embedded in the way that Chinese history books tell it. One is always loyal to China, even if one might disagree on who gets to claim that title. Note the official name of Taiwan - the Republic of China; the conflict between the PRC and Taiwan is about who gets to claim to be the true just ruler of China, wherever the capital may be.

The short version here is that to say that there is no continuous civilization is to make a political statement about the present, which would be controversial in China.

 

[BD123]

Can someone with better expertise explain why China is generally considered one continuous civilization?

History books and all that growing up always referred to China as the only ancient civilization to have continued into the present era, unlike say Ancient Greece or Egypt in my experience. We obviously have modern Greece and Egypt, but they're very much different from the civilizations they claim heritage from (with Greece not really claiming to be "Greek" until like the 19th century as nationalism and education reform took place - they still very much considered themselves inheritors of Roman legacies while under Ottoman occupation at that time).

I would also say Ancient Greece and Egypt were both taken over by various powers with different cultures after their heydays like the Romans, Ottomans etc. China experienced dynastic changes and the Mongol invasions but the Mongol Yuan dynasty became very Chinese culturally as did the later Manchu Qing dynasty to a certain degree, so I guess that's why the average person views China as continuous unlike Greece or Rome. You could also go into a discussion about the Western perception of the East as stagnant, continually entrenched and tied to the past as opposed to a forward-moving modernizing West but I don't think it's at all that deep since the game is pop culture and most players are average people who are not cross examining Civ 6 via critical theory lol

Also I'm not a super expert on Chinese historiography so like don't quote me on anything lol

All that aside, I don't really think China needs to be de-blobbed since it never really got wild imo. In Civ 6 China is emphasizing the ancient through medieval eras, with only the Crouching Tiger Cannon thing as poking out temporally in Qin's kit. It's not like Germany's U-Boat jammed right onto 3 medieval unique assets and lacking synergy... And having like three different kind Chinese dynasties as separate civs just seems excessive especially if it's at the cost of other (potentially new) civs from the same area.

 

[DWilson]

The short version here is that to say that there is no continuous civilization is to make a political statement about the present, which would be controversial in China.

I appreciate the answers from both you and @BD123 . Could this aspect, which of course isn't the full story of your replies, be compared to linguists who say some of the more significantly different Chinese dialects have indicators of being separate, related languages, rather than dialects of the same language, but generally don't push it because it goes against political expectations?

I'm sure it's not the same, of course, but perhaps a similar discussion.

 

[Yudhisthira]

China should appear just as one country, this make possible sellings in China. China can have more alternative leaders than normal to solve this issue

In Principle,I have not asked for deblobing China (Traditional Han region). I am only asking to rename it to it's Traditional,Indigenous name.

this make possible sellings in China

Tbh, I don't get this, I mean why would a Chinese guy mind if he get more options than just a single civ for the same price.
If anything this way, he will get a chance to re-act process of Sinicization just like a Rome-phile would want to do with Gauls,German conquest.