Clown Car 2016

[onejayhawk]

Thats US style capitalism at least you have first world country monitoring and some regulations. In India, the land of no regulations farmers and industry do whatever they want, drill and use aquifers as they want. Its a Libertarian utopia which will soon become a Libertarian nightmare when the aquifer run dry.

Import experts from California.

J

 

[Farm Boy]

Wasn't it you who accused me of "shaking the Malthus stick"?

There is a big ol' difference between "the planet can't sustain us!" and "What idiot thinks California and Nevada as such are sustainable?" People yammer about the true cost of energy being hidden when it comes to carbon footprints. I can get behind the logic. But considering that water in the US is pretty certain to become a problem significantly faster than man made climate change is going to and is far more solvable(if still extremely unpleasant), why am I not hearing the deafening roar of the hidden costs of our western desert-dwelling population and industry, much less the eating of fruits and veggies grown under irrigation in those climates, and in Florida, and the grains from the Ogallala? Guh, growing food in the deserts. Yammering about the necessity of local foods while planting millions of people in southern California. It's not a total failure of planning, but it's pretty bad.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

There is a big ol' difference between "the planet can't sustain us!" and "What idiot thinks California and Nevada as such are sustainable?" People yammer about the true cost of energy being hidden when it comes to carbon footprints. I can get behind the logic. But considering that water in the US is pretty certain to become a problem significantly faster than man made climate change is going to and is far more solvable(if still extremely unpleasant), why am I not hearing the deafening roar of the hidden costs of our western desert-dwelling population and industry, much less the eating of fruits and veggies grown under irrigation in those climates, and in Florida, and the grains from the Ogallala? Guh, growing food in the deserts. Yammering about the necessity of local foods while planting millions of people in southern California. It's not a total failure of planning, but it's pretty bad.

I dunno. I might actually call it a total failure of planning, actually.

 

[Commodore]

I dunno. I might actually call it a total failure of planning, actually.

It is a total failure of planning. People call me crazy, but I have been supportive of the idea of forced relocation of our desert population until it has been reduced to sustainable levels. I'm also not against water rationing either, even though I would complain about it if it were actually instituted.

Of course if people would stop foolishly supporting the defunding of the space program, we could be well on our way to colonizing another world. Once we are able to do that, we could consume and breed to our hearts' content since we could just move on to another world once things go belly up on whatever world we are currently occupying. But that's a discussion for another time.

 

[Hygro]

Does it matter how far someone is from the water source? I can't imagine the piping distance cuts back substantially on useable water.

 

[Cutlass]

Water has one of the highest transportation costs to market price of any commodity. Probably the highest.

 

[Hygro]

But does water transportation have a high water cost?

 

[Borachio]

That depends on how much leakage there is. There'll always be some. In the UK, in areas where water is plentiful, the amount lost by leakage is sometimes as high as 30% (through very old badly maintained pipes)*. In my area, where the water supply is substantially less plentiful, the amount lost by leakage is only ~1%.

I don't suppose leakage rates in desert parts of the US are high at all. It being a "modern" rich country and everything.

*edit: I bet you think this is a joke!

The latest statistics for the four biggest English water utilities show Severn Trent losing 27%, Thames Water and United Utilities (supplier to northwest England) 26%, and Yorkshire Water 25%.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/may/08/water-industry-pipes-scandal

 

[Farm Boy]

But does water transportation have a high water cost?

It's complicated. Redirecting rivers has high environmental costs, pumping costs when such are needed are energy intensive. Desalination plants are hella expensive, but they're going up, and they are not environmentally neutral either. The residential use could probably be absorbed with significantly higher prices. Maybe even some industries. But absorbing the costs of using desalinated or piped water in fresh fruits and vegetables? I'm pretty sure that would break the market. I'm not even entirely certain it would work over the long term. Irrigation with not quite adequately salt-free water is quite literally slo-mo "salting of the earth."

 

[Sommerswerd]

But does water transportation have a high water cost?

Are you saying we should raise the cost of water to reflect the transportation cost in order to curb demand into sustainable levels through market pressure?

It's complicated. Redirecting rivers has high environmental costs, pumping costs when such are needed are energy intensive. Desalination plants are hella expensive, but they're going up, and they are not environmentally neutral either. The residential use could probably be absorbed with significantly higher prices. Maybe even some industries. But absorbing the costs of using desalinated or piped water in fresh fruits and vegetables? I'm pretty sure that would break the market. I'm not even entirely certain it would work over the long term. Irrigation with not quite adequately salt-free water is quite literally slo-mo "salting of the earth."

That is interesting. Are you saying that desalinization is unsuitable for farming-water because it can never be truly desalinated to the degree that fresh water is? If so, is this a matter of chemical impossibility, inadequate current processes/technology, or prohibitive cost? Or something else?

 

[Farm Boy]

I think, and I could be wrong, feel free to google-fu the crap out of me if anyone is bored: As groundwater levels fall, continuing to pump local well water becomes saltier and that starts to become a concern in heavy irrigation. If desalinizing ocean water or pumping cross state, I think the price breaks it's viability first. And that is largely energy consumption in an environment where we've already largely bought into the premise that we aren't bearing the true costs of energy.

 

[Borachio]

It's surely not viable to irrigate with pumped water?! Unless you're Saudi Arabia.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

But does water transportation have a high water cost?

Depends on how you calculate...as usual.

If you consider leakage you get an easily measured and fairly small cost. If you consider the difference between watering a field by intermittent use of flood irrigation during rare dry spells vs daily spraying of water into dry desert air so that half of it evaporates before it even touches the ground in a field of comparable yield it gets difficult to measure...and horrific to contemplate.

 

[JollyRoger]

Imagine a president that finally, finally, finally secures the borders.

Too bad the borders weren't secured in 1974.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Imagine a president that finally, finally, finally secures the borders.

Alternatively, imagine a president that finally, finally, finally sprouts wings and flies.

What, you think securing the borders is any more doable?

 

[JollyRoger]

His Cruzship thinks that putting all IRS employees at the border will do the trick.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

His Cruzship thinks that putting all IRS employees at the border will do the trick.

Ah. That's a step in some direction from "not just a fence, a high tech fence". Can't really say it is a step up, necessarily.

 

[jackelgull]

I'm all for anything that gets the IRS far away from me

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I'm all for anything that gets the IRS far away from me

Make no money. They will leave you completely alone.

 

[Wolfbeckett]

I'm all for anything that gets the IRS far away from me

Wait a second... I live near the border! I'm against this! Clinton 2016!