Clown Car IV: The Dotard and Dunce Parade

[Lexicus]

No Democrat, no matter how conservative, is even remotely as authoritarian.

No. But I see less difference between a vast authoritarian surveillance state with concentration camps and a President-for-life and a vast authoritarian surveillance state with concentration camps and Presidents elected to four-year terms than you seem to.

And additionally I worry that some younger Republican is likely to be more effectively authoritarian than Trump is.

 

[Phrossack]

Right, he's personally authoritarian but the system frequently stymies him. He lost the house and is constantly complaining about liberal judges. Congress actually passed a war powers resolution in both houses. His attempts at starting wars in Syria, Venezuela and Iran are falling flat. His appointees are resigning or being outed for open corruption left and right.

He and his base are the only ones deluded enough to think he's been successful. He hasn't.

Electing a third way Democrat would be a unspoken approval of the way the party has worked since Bill Clinton pulled the party right. That would be a foolish way to invite another Trump/Bolsonaro/Johnson type or worse leader in the future.

The checks and balances are crumbling rapidly. In just two and a half years he's appointed two SCOTUS judges, a huge portion of federal judges in unprecedented simultaneous interviews and interviews during recess, has appointed a loyal AG who believes in abolishing basically any restraints on presidential authority, has obstructed justice incessantly with his firings and instructions to ignore subpoenas, and normalized the idea of a President who can break any law at any time for any reason...just two and a half years! Given more time, he'll BE the system, and then there will be absolutely no checks and balances on him. His supporters are so fervent that he could order hits on political opponents, pardon the assassins, and actually gain popularity for it.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Don't forget that trump has called for foreign countries to hack the dnc

 

[Gori the Grey]

Elect Biden president and you'll be pining for Trump in another ten years.

This is simply not true. Perhaps you intended it as hyperbole.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Biden 2020, Steve Bannon 2028.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Should Steve Bannon be elected president in 2028, it would not make me pine for Trump.

 

[Lexicus]

This is simply not true. Perhaps you intended it as hyperbole.

Interesting, can you explain how you know it is not true? Time travel?

 

[Gori the Grey]

I know myself. I know that I will under no conditions pine for Trump.

 

[Lexicus]

I know myself. I know that I will under no conditions pine for Trump.

Yeah, I mean I already know this: some future President could have substantially worse policies than Trump and as long as they act "Presidential" a certain group of liberals will be fine with it. I admit I did not realize you were part of this group. Consider my comment to have been addressed to a "you" that excludes this cohort.

 

[Phrossack]

Yeah, I mean I already know this: some future President could have substantially worse policies than Trump and as long as they act "Presidential" a certain group of liberals will be fine with it. I admit I did not realize you were part of this group. Consider my comment to have been addressed to a "you" that excludes this cohort.

How do you know re-electing Trump won't result in even more extreme Republicans later on?

 

[Lexicus]

How do you know re-electing Trump won't result in even more extreme Republicans later on?

Well, the question isn't whether there will be more extreme Republicans (there will be) but whether they will be in a position to win power. The Republican Party is shrinking to a hard core of overt white nationalists: College Republicans are already essentially neo-Nazis and the next generation of Republican politicians will be drawn from that pool.

Btw I am pretty sure that re-electing Trump will lead to the same problems as electing Biden in that sense. The question for me is whether Biden being defeated might have a salutary effect on the Democratic party. A second loss to Trump might be the impetus to really destroy the authority of the centrist geriatrics currently running the party. That would imo be a good thing. But it is an open question whether the cost - a second Trump term - is worth it.

 

[Phrossack]

Well, the question isn't whether there will be more extreme Republicans (there will be) but whether they will be in a position to win power. The Republican Party is shrinking to a hard core of overt white nationalists: College Republicans are already essentially neo-Nazis and the next generation of Republican politicians will be drawn from that pool.

Btw I am pretty sure that re-electing Trump will lead to the same problems as electing Biden in that sense. The question for me is whether Biden being defeated might have a salutary effect on the Democratic party. A second loss to Trump might be the impetus to really destroy the authority of the centrist geriatrics currently running the party. That would imo be a good thing. But it is an open question whether the cost - a second Trump term - is worth it.

That makes more sense. I don't agree on the shrinking of the Republican base - they still have the unquestioning obedience of millions of single-issue voters on guns and banning abortion, plus many white Christians (there is a lot of overlap, granted.)

A second loss to Trump may open the Democratic Party to the idea of actual left-wing candidates.But it would give the Republicans four more years to permanently rig elections and courts and do irreparable damage, thereby making the Democratic Party's reforms irrelevant. In 2020, we win or we lose the country to one-party extreme right-wing authoritarianism.

 

[Berzerker]

Trump's an ugly embarrassment on a national scale but in real tangible effects that impact a majority of voters hes no worse. NAFTA really did wreck my state. We used to be a donor state, paid more in taxes than we received in aid. Now free trade has had massive impact and I've seen plants reduce output or close over and over. I live right on the I 75 corridor in a major GM production district. Good union jobs are hard to come by and after the bailout there were significant cuts in worker pay and benefits.

Hillary lost because all while Dump hammered her for NAFTA Obama was trying to pass a similar agreement in TPP. Trump's dumbass tariffs have been damaging but TPP may have been worse.

Why vote in Biden who will probably just revive that crap? Go ahead list off every Donny Tiny-hands scandal. The stuff I listed has real impact on people. Why vote for the Senator from MBNA when the only thing better about him is he's less embarrassing?

Biden cant charm his past away, he more than anyone else embodies the woes of trade, foreign policy, and the drug war. Trump can point to him and recite chapter and verse, Nafta, Syria and crime bill. Which one is the right winger?

I don't think you can make a serious argument that Obama or Biden is directly as bad as Trump. The real point is that their administrations, their politics, leads to Trump. Obama's presidency produced Trump and not only as a racist backlash but also a backlash against the cutting-torch of neoliberalism destroying people's lives.

Elect Biden president and you'll be pining for Trump in another ten years. Elect a Warren or a Sanders and we might have a shot at fixing this country.

They're worse than Trump... just count the people in graves and prisons or running for their lives.

 

[Lexicus]

"I have to say when Donald Trump says there are parts of London that are 'No Go' areas, I think he's betraying a quite stupefying ignorance that makes him, frankly, unfit to hold the office of president of the United States."

-Boris Johnson 2015

 

[Takhisis]

A second loss to Trump might be the impetus to really destroy the authority of the centrist geriatrics currently running the party. That would imo be a good thing. But it is an open question whether the cost - a second Trump term - is worth it.

I've lived through such a situation (all props to Cutlass who has long been saying that the GOP wants to turn the US into a LatAm-style banana republic) and I'll resoundingly say NO. The damage they do, the institutional entrenchment achieved by appointing partisan hacks to courtrooms and independent administrative agencies, the lame-duck spending sprees undertaken by outgoing lame-duck governments… please, please no.

 

[Socrates99]

Look, just because we'd sit out on Biden doesn't mean we're skipping house and Senate votes. The ability Trump has to rig things depends heavily on controlling the legislative branch and there are cracks even on the Republican side.

What Lexicus and others are trying to point out is that Biden isn't really a lot better. Take the environmental issues for example. I pointed it out earlier but Trump is lying when he says he made America number one in energy exports. Obama did that. Not Bush, Obama. For clarity's sake I'll repeat that, Obama increased oil production. He was not good for global warming. Hillary wouldn't have been better, Biden won't be better. If you're worried about climate change electing a third way Democrat is not better than a Republican at all. Maybe worse, simply because they pay lip service to climate concerns with weak sauce climate accords while advocating destructive policies. People are at least awake and angry under Trump, Biden would put them back to sleep.

 

[Broken_Erika]

A second trump term would ensure that only trump supporters would be allowed to vote in the 2024 election.

 

[Socrates99]

A second trump term would ensure that only trump supporters would be allowed to vote in the 2024 election.

You sure? Even Gorsuch shot the GoP down in the Virginia gerrymandering case.

 

[Phrossack]

Look, just because we'd sit out on Biden doesn't mean we're skipping house and Senate votes. The ability Trump has to rig things depends heavily on controlling the legislative branch.

What Lexicus and others are trying to point out is that Biden isn't really a lot better. Take the environmental issues for example. I pointed it out earlier but Trump is lying when he says he made America number one in energy exports. Obama did that. Not Bush, Obama. For clarity's sake I'll repeat that, Obama increased oil production. He was not good for global warming. Hillary wouldn't have been better, Biden won't be better. If you're worried about climate change electing a third way Democrat is not better than a Republican at all. Maybe worse, simply because they pay lip service to climate concerns with weak sauce climate accords while advocating destructive policies. People are at least awake and angry under Trump, Biden would put them back to sleep.

Maybe you would turn out to vote for positions other than President, but I fear a lot of people go to the polls during general elections specifically to vote on the President, and also vote for other positions while they're there. In other words, an attitude of "don't bother voting for the Dem candidate" would translate to fewer votes for everyone else down-ticket.

I'm skeptical that people are really awake and angry in any way that matters. There's a growing sense, I think, of general fatigue with nonstop crises here. Democrats are angry - of course they are - but moderates and compulsive centrists seem to shrug, consider this endless series of crises the new normal, and adapt without really caring enough to vote the GOP out. No matter how absurd the situation, if it sticks around long enough (like, say, eight years), people will just get used to it and think it's normal and acceptable.

That's just one of countless reasons a second Trump win would be lethal. His far-right agenda would, in time, be seen as center-right (it increasingly is already) or even "moderate."

 

[Socrates99]

Maybe you would turn out to vote for positions other than President, but I fear a lot of people go to the polls during general elections specifically to vote on the President, and also vote for other positions while they're there. In other words, an attitude of "don't bother voting for the Dem candidate" would translate to fewer votes for everyone else down-ticket.

I'm skeptical that people are really awake and angry in any way that matters. There's a growing sense, I think, of general fatigue with nonstop crises here. Democrats are angry - of course they are - but moderates and compulsive centrists seem to shrug, consider this endless series of crises the new normal, and adapt without really caring enough to vote the GOP out. No matter how absurd the situation, if it sticks around long enough (like, say, eight years), people will just get used to it and think it's normal and acceptable.

That's just one of countless reasons a second Trump win would be lethal. His far-right agenda would, in time, be seen as center-right (it increasingly is already) or even "moderate."

You think the ACA repeal failed because a few legislators grew a conscience? The apparent outrage cowed them into tanking it. McCain just took one for the team because he was on his deathbed. They knew itd be political suicide. It takes charismatic Democrats to do the really bad stuff. People pin NAFTA on Clinton because he signed it but GHWB laid the groundwork. Clinton was the one that passed rightwing welfare reforms and the crime bill. Obama deported more illegals than Bush, imprisoned whistle blowers, increased oil production etc but he has high approval ratings, why? He's not embarrassing like trump.

We need to stop supporting people like that just because they have a D next to their name. Trump is no more a threat than Bush was. The real threat is electing "Ds" that do "R" things.