Clown Car V: 2020 version!
- Thread starter Estebonrober
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Seems I started a whole page worth of responses. Far too many to respond individually. There seems to be a great deal of hatred toward the American system, seems to me that this is based in envy. We are the bread basket of the world, the richest country in the world by far, the strongest country in the world by far... all of this to say. You can fault us in every way you wish however, Western civilization survived the 20th century because of the United States of America. Stating otherwise shows a lack of understanding of the last century's history. You can despise our methods but they have proven effective, you can focus on our faults but they are ours to fix and will eventually be fixed as incremental change is the best method for the US. We have always had our faults, some necessary, some unnecessary, all of them added up to one simple thing, we are and always will be the leader of the free world if for no other reason than we are the only ones capable of defending western society.
World War 2 wasn't necessarily my focus. World War 1 & 2, the Cold War, etc all sustained western society.
Even on that broader and much much more tenuous take, all you're doing is trumpeting the magnitude of United States industrial output as an argument for the United States political system being a good example of a functional democracy. Those two things are barely related, if at all.
It's even less of a defence of United States malfeasance abroad, since it is literally the industrial output that let it do those things.
It's even less of a defence of United States malfeasance abroad, since it is literally the industrial output that let it do those things.
WW1 you got in far too late to claim credit, WW2 most of the heavy lifting was done by Russia and the cold war may not even have been a war without the US.
That industrial output was only possible due to our democracy.
As I pointed out previously, without the US the Soviet Union would have crushed the western European nations and put them all under some variation of communist ideology.
It's funny when generations pass and you reach today where people think the currently existing wealth and prosperity was created from nothing and if you convert away from what got you there the wealth and prosperity will just continue. All current western societies were created based on the American system prevailing over Monarchists, Fascists, and Communists.
"The US is riddled with racist voter suppression, gerrymandering, disenfranchisement and malapportionment and is in many ways barely a functional democratic system"
"Yeah well we won the Battle of Cantigny so SHOVE IT, USA USA USA"
"Yeah well we won the Battle of Cantigny so SHOVE IT, USA USA USA"
Ignoring the points made really undercuts your arguement. I'm not claiming we are the best example for democracy just that we are and have always been the leader of the free world. We protected democracy from every threat of the past two centuries, our democracy works for us but understanding that its not the best model for other nations normally we push parliamentary systems when nation building is required.
That's a weird take haven the United States hasn't even been a full democracy for 200 years tbh and I don't think even really fought alongside many full democracies until WW2. It's not like they sent troops to support the revolutions in 1848 or whatever.
Until the 1930s the US was mostly, in terms of action abroad, characterised by imperialism in attempting to suppress opposition to retain control of places like the Philippines and Cuba after conquering them from Spain, and profiteering Banana War interventions in Central America.
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GenMarshall
High Elven ISB Capt & Ghost Agent
Well, to be fair. The Russian Empire dropped out when they had their communist revolution. Meaning that, while weakened, the German and Austro-Hungarian armed forces can pull their troops from the eastern front and reallocate them to the western front. Adding more pressure to the strained British and French troops who’ve been fighting for two-three years. American forces that were sent to Europe weren’t battle wearied and beaten.
Though I feel this discussion is best taken to the History Forums.
Lexicus
Deity
I am an American.
Our methods work so well that thousands of people are now dying of covid per day because we elected a moron to be the head of state and the "world's greatest deliberative body" is currently run by the world's biggest ******* (Mitch McConnell).
Open your eyes. Let reality in.
The galaxy brain take here is that the US helped democracy in WW1 is by making it closer to a draw, thus exhausting and destabilising all the imperial powers and accelerating democratisation and decolonisation.
There were a couple of major belligerent countries on both sides which started the war with universal suffrage (for men) in Germany and France. A couple of the minor belligerents like New Zealand and the non-independent Finland were actually full democracies, but it's not as though that was what anyone was fighting over, and New Zealand was certainly never in danger while Finland became independent in 1917.
And of course even the more democratic major belligerents held vast populations in decidedly non-democratic colonial servitude, so it's hard to argue that WW1 was about democracy at all.
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Arguably since the end of WWI the US has been the strongest world power.
Still, great powers come and go (just ask us Europeans) and although they all tend to think their greatness is due to some intrinsic merit of their people or system that never stopped their decline.
I doubt the US will prove any different.
Still, great powers come and go (just ask us Europeans) and although they all tend to think their greatness is due to some intrinsic merit of their people or system that never stopped their decline.
I doubt the US will prove any different.
Lexicus
Deity
It's really amazing how similar American nationalists sound to Roman sources, who were almost all positive that Rome's empire was a result of its moral superiority. I can only surmise the idea comes from a guilty conscience. So much easier to say we are the biggest empire because we're the most vrituous people rather than saying we exterminated a group of people to take their resources.
Your eyes are clouded by the picture in front of you. As all nations have we elected a less than ideal person(s) to positions of power. Mistakes happen in all system's of government. I was not defending the current President's actions or lack thereof, I am simply defending the American system of government, the shield against tyranny and what has preserved western society for the entirety of the 20th and 21st centuries. You may loathe many facets of American democracy but imagine a place where the US stepped back from it's global leadership. President Trump has tried to pull us back and look at the ramifications of that act. In-spite of the many flaws in our system we are the best hope for democracy and the preservation of western civilization. In the absence of the US who is the next preeminent power? China? How will the world look in 20 years if China replaced us on the world stage? Russia? The same question applies, you may dislike it but without the US this world would be a much darker place.
This thread was slightly hijacked, I don't support the President's policies or actions but I had to respond to the attack on the American system.
Zardnaar
Deity
People carry anti Americanisms to far imho.
If it wasn't them someone else would do it.
In other news China's slapped embargoes on Australian wine and beef. They can't screw will USA to much but they can with other nations.
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