Columbus Day

[BasketCase]

What's your take on Columbus Day?

Personally I question the very fact that it's still celebrated. What's to celebrate, honestly?

Many great things in our lives are the result of mistakes. Starting with good old fashioned bread.

Shameless product plug: a book about inventions by mistake

 

[NovaKart]

I'm all for having more holidays. I've always been more surprised that Andrew Jackson is still on the 20 dollar bill than the fact that Columbus Day is celebrated.

The thing that annoys me a little about Columbus Day is how some Italian-Americans make it into such a pride thing. So Columbus was Italian, who cares? It doesn't make you so special. Then people justify it with the whole we were discriminated against thing. Well I'm sorry someone spat at your great-grandmother but the same thing happened to the Irish and the Jews and a bunch of other people. Get over it. I didn't mean this to come across as anti-Italian-American, just to those who insist on making Columbus Day into a whole I'm so extremely proud that I happened to be born with Italian ancestry thing.

 

[de Maistre]

What genocide did Columbus commit?

 

[Winner]

What's your take on Columbus Day?

Personally I question the very fact that it's still celebrated. What's to celebrate, honestly?

Multicultural revisionism? Gods help us...

Hilter impacted history alot too, should we have Hitler day & cite him as inspiration for the United Nations? If not Columbus some other a-hole would've (and did) rape & conquer the Americas. His dumbass couldn't even admit he didn't find the Indies.

 

[BasketCase]

Actually, we already have Hitler-related holidays: specifically, those days when we celebrate how Hitler got completely pwn3d.

"ha, i start with tanks"
"hitler rushed, need help"
"bye frenchy lol"
"hey, how did united states get an army so fast!?! hax"
"stalin, lets attack hitler together, k?"
"k"
"crap, u 2 quit with ur hax"
"ha, hitler, u got rolled u sux"
<HITLER HAS DISCONNECTED>
"rofl, ragequit"

 

[NovaKart]

Columbus was pretty bad:

He remarked that their lack of modern weaponry and even metal-forged swords or pikes was a tactical vulnerability, writing, "I could conquer the whole of them with 50 men, and govern them as I pleased."

Columbus then required from the Taino that each adult over 14 years of age was expected to deliver a hawks bell full of gold every three months, or when this was lacking, twenty five pounds of spun cotton. If this tribute was not observed, the Taínos had their hands cut off and were left to bleed to death

This was after the Taino had destroyed a Spanish settlement and killed many of his sailors so he did at least have reason to be angry at the time.

Since Columbus supported the enslavement of the Hispaniola natives for economic reasons, he ultimately refused to baptize them, as Catholic law forbade the enslavement of Christians

People throw around the word genocide a lot and I don't think it's exactly appropriate in this case but he was brutal.

 

[Winner]

That's not the point. Columbus is being "celebrated" as the discoverer of America - which is rather understandable since 98% of people living in the Americas today trace their ancestry to Europe, Africa, or Asia.

If you're ashamed of living there, then pack your stuff and "return home".

 

[aelf]

Pointless question. I have absolutely no way of knowing what the modern world would look like without colonization of the Americas and the Columbian Exchange. Regardless of how it turned out, you can't justify the actions of Columbus and his ilk by the existence of the modern world, because there was no intent to create such. Also, Columbus was a nasty person on a personal level, and even the contemporary Spanish crown thought that he needed to lighten up on the natives.

Anyways, I don't think the modern world is inherently bad because the history that led to it is ugly and regrettable. I just would rather we celebrate the more positive parts of our history.

Nicely said.

I don't know whether to be surprised that people here still subscribe to something bordering the 'best possible world' line of thinking.

Multicultural revisionism? Gods help us...

What's revisionist or multicultural about it?

 

[Winner]

What's revisionist or multicultural about it?

Everything. It seems that people who follow these particular ways of thinking are determined to eradicate all traces of national culture and history. "Oh but our ancestors did this and that, eternal shame on us, we must loathe ourselves and apologize 24/7 to the descendants of those our ancestors wronged".

Ridiculous.

 

[NovaKart]

That's not the point. Columbus is being "celebrated" as the discoverer of America - which is rather understandable since 98% of people living in the Americas today trace their ancestry to Europe, Africa, or Asia.

If you're ashamed of living there, then pack your stuff and "return home".

You're assuming that I made a point which I never made. It's not revisionist history to point out that Columbus did some pretty brutal things. I'm not exactly anti-Columbus Day but I can at least recognize why it's a little problematic to celebrate it. In the end I don't really care one way or the other about it. Columbus Day has only been celebrated since 1907 and was never a big holiday so I think we're pretty safe from losing our way of life if we abandon it.

 

[aelf]

Everything. It seems that people who follow these particular ways of thinking are determined to eradicate all traces of national culture and history. "Oh but our ancestors did this and that, eternal shame on us, we must loathe ourselves and apologize 24/7 to the descendants of those our ancestors wronged".

Ridiculous.

Yeah, what's so revisionist or multicultural about it?

 

[Winner]

Yeah, what's so revisionist or multicultural about it?

It's a revision of history and it's motivated by the multiculturalist ideology.

You're assuming that I made a point which I never made.

I wasn't replying to you personally.

It's not revisionist history to point out that Columbus did some pretty brutal things.

It's not like we just found out. It's been known for a very, very long time.

I'm not exactly anti-Columbus Day but I can at least recognize why it's a little problematic to celebrate it. In the end I don't really care one way or the other about it. Columbus Day has only been celebrated since 1907 and was never a big holiday so I think we're pretty safe from losing our way of life if we abandon it.

It's just absurd. You could just as well stop celebrating the Independence Day (American independence was a disaster to the Native "Americans").

BTW, here in Europe we have the Charlemagne Prize that is awarded to people who promote the cause of European unity. Anybody who knows something about Charlemagne could object that he was a brutal ruler who condoned genocide, ethnic cleansing, religious violence, and whatnot. The point is these things are not what's the Prize is about.

 

[aelf]

It's a revision of history and it's motivated by the multiculturalist ideology.

What's the revision? You think whether atrocities were committed is a matter of interpretation?

And please define what the "multiculturalist ideology" is. I would describe myself as a 'multiculturalist', and that's because I think there is no real basis for categorically rejecting the idea that people with very different cultures can live together in the same society.

 

[NovaKart]

It's a revision of history and it's motivated by the multiculturalist ideology.




I wasn't replying to you personally.



It's not like we just found out. It's been known for a very, very long time.



It's just absurd. You could just as well stop celebrating the Independence Day (American independence was a disaster to the Native "Americans").

BTW, here in Europe we have the Charlemagne Prize that is awarded to people who promote the cause of European unity. Anybody who knows something about Charlemagne could object that he was a brutal ruler who condoned genocide, ethnic cleansing, religious violence, and whatnot. The point is these things are not what's the Prize is about.

The average American probably doesn't know that about Columbus. Independence Day is at least a major holiday that most people celebrate. Maybe one day enough Neo-Pagans wil unite to protest against the Karlspreis

 

[Winner]

What's the revision? You think whether atrocities were committed is a matter of interpretation?

What's revisionist is the attempt revise the image of Columbus from a discoverer to a bloodthirsty genocidal maniac who's somehow responsible for everything that happened in Americas following his discovery.

And please define what the "multiculturalist ideology" is. I would describe myself as a 'multiculturalist', and that's because I think there is no real basis for categorically rejecting the idea that people with very different cultures can live together in the same society.

Very crudely, it's the position that people from different cultural backgrounds should not assimilate, but maintain their differences (if need be, with governmental help). Instead of individuals being the ones who have rights, multiculturalism claims that communities defined along ethnic/religious lines have collective rights. In the extreme form, these communities are being granted various privileges and exemptions, and (self-)censorship is applied in the media in order to avoid "offending" their sensibilities.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

What genocide did Columbus commit?

Well, shortly after the news on Columbus´s discovery reached Spain there was a debate at the highest level about the legality of conquering and colonizing the Americas having in mind the new land was already populate by the inidians. There were two sides: The ones who considered indians human beings with all his rights and the colonization of the Americas would be illegal without respecting them, leaded by Francisco de Vitoria and by Bartolome de las Casas; and the ones who said America land was in fact "Terra nullius" because indians were little more than animals and could be crushed without hesitation, leaded for Gines de Sepulveda and backed by the "encomenderos" (land owners). Columbus and sons being themselves encomenderos always supported the last thesis. Eventually it was the first side who won the debate at the famous (famous for the legal historians at least) "Junta de Valladolid", so laws to protect indians were issued by the kings (how well those laws were enforced is other question). Encomedereos didnt accept those laws and Columbus himself was even jailed for breaking them.

So if tou have seen the movie by Depardieu "1492: Conquest of Paradise" it was exactly the other way around. Columbus was one of the bad guys.

 

[aelf]

What's revisionist is the attempt revise the image of Columbus from a discoverer to a bloodthirsty genocidal maniac who's somehow responsible for everything that happened in Americas following his discovery.

It may be a hyperbole to refer to Colombus as "a bloodthirsty genocidal maniac" (the phrase was actually "a genocidal, slave trading, murderous, plundering scumbag" - similar, but not quite the same). But I haven't seen anyone actually blame him for what happened after him.

So, yeah, not really revisionist in any derogatory sense of the word.

Very crudely, it's the position that people from different cultural backgrounds should not assimilate, but maintain their differences (if need be, with governmental help). Instead of individuals being the ones who have rights, multiculturalism claims that communities defined along ethnic/religious lines have collective rights. In the extreme form, these communities are being granted various privileges and exemptions, and (self-)censorship is applied in the media in order to avoid "offending" their sensibilities.

Isn't it a bit of a leap to connect that to an unfavourable view of Colombus and his deeds in the New World?

By the way, collective rights are good and do not necessarily mean exemptions from certain laws.

 

[Skwink]

I'm all for having more holidays. I've always been more surprised that Andrew Jackson is still on the 20 dollar bill than the fact that Columbus Day is celebrated.

Jackson was a great president.

 

[warpus]

Miles and Narz, if you could go back in time and stop Columbus from reaching the Americas and helping to open up the large-scale colonization of the Americas, would you?

In this novel by the questionable Orson Scott Card somebody does.. Good book!

 

[.Shane.]

Jackson was a great president.

He's extremely over-rated and did a lot of very harmful things. Having him on the $20 is an unfortunate irony.

Now, in terms of personality and the life he led, I'd say he's definitely one of the most fascinating.