Columbus Day

[Winner]

That doesn't mean that the event paving the way for the death of upwards of 80% of the indigenous American population is a good thing.

Well, blame viruses and bacteria for that, not Columbus.

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Someone, someday, would have discovered America even if Columbus had failed. It was completely inevitable, given the process of overseas exploration that was already taking place.

And even if that someone had the best of intentions, sooner or later the Old World diseases would have arrived to the New World and wiped out nearly 90% of its population. Blaming Europeans for causing something they didn't even know could happen (at least I am not aware of any research in microbiology and epidemiology being done at the that time in Europe ) isn't rational.

 

[kochman]

Well, blame viruses and bacteria for that, not Columbus.

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Someone, someday, would have discovered America even if Columbus had failed. It was completely inevitable, given the process of overseas exploration that was already taking place.

And even if that someone had the best of intentions, sooner or later the Old World diseases would have arrived to the New World and wiped out nearly 90% of its population. Blaming Europeans for causing something they didn't even know could happen (at least I am not aware of any research in microbiology and epidemiology being done at the that time in Europe ) isn't rational.

But it makes people feel so warm and fuzzy!!!

 

[Miles Teg]

Well, blame viruses and bacteria for that, not Columbus.

Sure. But then you're still left with European invasions, slave taking, destruction of indigenous cultures, so on and so forth. All totally normal for Columbus's day and age, but still bad. And as I mentioned earlier, even the contemporary Spanish thought that that Columbus was a cruel colonial governor.

From a moral perspective, the smallpox epidemics are just the tragic topping on the misery cake.

 

[Winner]

Sure. But then you're still left with European invasions, slave taking, destruction of indigenous cultures, so on and so forth. All totally normal for Columbus's day and age, but still bad. And as I mentioned earlier, even the contemporary Spanish thought that that Columbus was a cruel colonial governor.

But he's not celebrated for that, just as Charlemagne isn't respected in Europe for being the king who massacred the Saxons.

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About the "European" violence - it's important to understand that it was not different from other situations where more advanced cultures met less advanced ones. Today, we might delude ourselves that we know better (not really, today's transnational companies are equally willing to exploit and screw over natives in the few places left where they own some land), but back then, it was just a process, a natural way of things. It doesn't justify examples of extreme cruelty perpetrated by individuals, but overall, it was more like a wildfire. You might curse Nature for causing a forest fire that consumes your house, but you realize that it's pointless.

 

[Miles Teg]

But we don't observe a "Forest Fire Day". Nobody tries to claim that we aren't celebrating the destructive qualities of the forest fire, just it's brilliant heat and pretty colors, or what have you.

 

[Joecoolyo]

Hilter impacted history alot too, should we have Hitler day & cite him as inspiration for the United Nations? If not Columbus some other a-hole would've (and did) rape & conquer the Americas. His dumbass couldn't even admit he didn't find the Indies.

As I think Winner said, pretty nice Godwin.

 

[Maniacal]

Canadian Thanksgiving is a hell of a lot better (also was yesterday), what I don't get is why Americans celebrate theirs so close to christmas. It's nice having something in early october and then having a couple of months before the winter holidays.

 

[Miles Teg]

Canadian Thanksgiving is a hell of a lot better (also was yesterday), what I don't get is why Americans celebrate theirs so close to christmas. It's nice having something in early october and then having a couple of months before the winter holidays.

October already has Halloween. What do you do all November?

 

[Cutlass]

Um... so your thesis is small pox travelled faster than even the explorers to erradicate peoples?
Archealogical evidence supports your viewpoint????


I'd expect to find sea to sea of native settlements if you were correct.

I think it's a factor of the native Americans having a great deal more contact with one another than is commonly understood.

Tribe A gets a disease from explorers. Member of tribe A has contact with tribe B. Member of tribe B has contact with tribe C. By the time explorers contact tribe X, the disease has proceeded them.

 

[luiz]

But he's not celebrated for that, just as Charlemagne isn't respected in Europe for being the king who massacred the Saxons.

Very good analogy!

Goes to show that PC idiocy is not as widespread in Europe, luckily for you guys.

 

[Miles Teg]

Very good analogy!

I'm not seeing it. It's easy to see Charlemagne as a thug, but he also ushered in the Carolingian Renaissance. Columbus's main contribution to humanity seems to be not dying after getting lost.

 

[de Maistre]

The influx of colonial wealth from America funded Baroque architecture back in Europe.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

I'm not seeing it. It's easy to see Charlemagne as a thug, but he also ushered in the Carolingian Renaissance. Columbus's main contribution to humanity seems to be not dying after getting lost.

AFAIK Columbus day is not celebrated in America becuase Coumbus is specially respected but becuase like it or not, that October 12 500+ years ago was the beginning and the foundation of the Americas we know and, at some level, of the world we all have today, even with all the negative things such event may have brought to the world (and i am not thinking of the indian apocalypse only).

 

[luiz]

I'm not seeing it. It's easy to see Charlemagne as a thug, but he also ushered in the Carolingian Renaissance. Columbus's main contribution to humanity seems to be not dying after getting lost.

Both are symbolic celebrations. Charlemagne is the symbolic "father of Europe", while Columbus' voyage marks the birth of the colonization of the New World.

As individuals, both were men of their time and engaged in practices we now find deeply reprehensible.

 

[NovaKart]

Honestly the only reason Columbus Day is celebrated in the USA is because some Italian Americans decided to get together and decided to turn it into a "we're so special because our ancestors came from the same penninsula" event. Despite the fact that Columbus was from Genoa and there was no united Italy at the time and he may not have even thought of himself as being Italian and probably would have little in common with some guy from New Jersey who can't speak any Italian.

 

[civ_king]

Honestly the only reason Columbus Day is celebrated in the USA is because some Italian Americans decided to get together and decided to turn it into a "we're so special because our ancestors came from the same penninsula" event. Despite the fact that Columbus was from Genoa and there was no united Italy at the time and he may not have even thought of himself as being Italian and probably would have little in common with some guy from New Jersey who can't speak any Italian.

Americans have been celebrating it since the beginning of the US, you listed why it became a federal holiday

 

[Narz]

"To be the first, or the first of one's group or kind, to find, learn of, or observe."
(Source)

I'd call it a discovery.

No, it was an invasion as humankind already existed in the Americas.

Miles and Narz, if you could go back in time and stop Columbus from reaching the Americas and helping to open up the large-scale colonization of the Americas, would you?

If I had that power I'd make sure it was done differently, I wouldn't necessarily stop any contact.

People throw around the word genocide a lot and I don't think it's exactly appropriate in this case but he was brutal.

Considering the Taino are basicly extinct thanks to the Spanards I'd say it is exactly appropriate.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

My point was that any talk of "stealing their land" is BS. The indians were living on "stolen land" too.

Oh? Who did the first Indians steal it from? There weren't any humans there!

Canadian Thanksgiving is a hell of a lot better (also was yesterday), what I don't get is why Americans celebrate theirs so close to christmas. It's nice having something in early october and then having a couple of months before the winter holidays.

October already has Halloween. What do you do all November?

In November we do two things:

1. November 11 is Remembrance Day. There is still a decent proportion of Canadians who observe this and participate in the Act of Remembrance.

2. We start our Christmas shopping. No "Black Friday" horror stories for us!


Actually, I thought the idea of Thanksgiving was to give thanks for the harvest. It doesn't make any sense to do that any later than October in Canada, because by the time the end of November comes around, we usually have snow on the ground - the snow that stays until April.

 

[Miles Teg]

Oh? Who did the first Indians steal it from? There weren't any humans there!

Other Indians. Contrary to popular belief, the Indians weren't a monolithic hive mind, and they had centuries of time to make war among themselves before the Europeans showed up. The Iroquois ranged south, and most of the tribes of the Great Plains had been pushed onto that poor territory by other tribes. The archaeological record is clearest in Mesoamerica and the Andes,so it only takes a quick trip to Wikipedia to see how many times one group of Indians stole another nation's land.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Oh? Who did the first Indians steal it from? There weren't any humans there!

Other Indians. Contrary to popular belief, the Indians weren't a monolithic hive mind, and they had centuries of time to make war among themselves before the Europeans showed up. The Iroquois ranged south, and most of the tribes of the Great Plains had been pushed onto that poor territory by other tribes. The archaeological record is clearest in Mesoamerica and the Andes,so it only takes a quick trip to Wikipedia to see how many times one group of Indians stole another nation's land.

Come again? Are you saying that the Iroquois evolved independently from the rest of the human race?

I'm talking about the FIRST Indians. You know, the first people who crossed over the Bering land bridge from Asia. They didn't steal the land they settled on, because there literally wasn't anybody here.

BTW, I did study the North American Indians in my anthropology courses, from the Arctic to Meso-America. I'm quite aware they had vastly differing cultures.