Communism

[aelf]

Not really. Josef Stalin demonstrated the opposite, according to history.

Communism is bad because the doctrine demands radical change, even at the cost of lives.

Democracy is bad because it demands freedom, even at the cost of lives.

True; but I would warn that Stalin was a pretty awesome manager, so how much the advancement is down to communism is up for debate

If you're an awesome manager but there's no company to manage, what's the use? Leninism and Stalinism are about appropriating the apparatus of the state to expropriate capital from the capitalist class and to direct production. Without the machinery in place, Stalin's managerial talent wouldn't be of any use.

 

[Flying Pig]

Freedom is worth lives - radical change isn't

 

[aelf]

Freedom is worth lives - radical change isn't

How about radical change that brings freedom?

 

[Flying Pig]

I see what you did there - communism isn't freedom, that's what the theoreticians never understand. A free communist society wouldn't work, hence why it has never happened

 

[aelf]

I see what you did there - communism isn't freedom, that's what the theoreticians never understand. A free communist society wouldn't work, hence why it has never happened

I think not having to constantly worry about economic security and one's well-being is freedom too. Can you blame me for it?

 

[Flying Pig]

Yes - you've commited the classic error. Worrying about that sort of thing is the definition of freedom, because everything is in your control, as opposed to someone else looking after it for you

 

[aelf]

Yes - you've commited the classic error. Worrying about that sort of thing is the definition of freedom, because everything is in your control, as opposed to someone else looking after it for you

And yes - you've committed the classic error, thinking that not having to worry means you relinquish responsibility.

 

[Flying Pig]

Speak quickly - unless I misunderstood you. If you don't have to look after your own problems (or potential problems) then you're not responsible for them

 

[aelf]

Speak quickly - unless I misunderstood you. If you don't have to look after your own problems (or potential problems) then you're not responsible for them

Actually, it's precisely because I like knowing that I have control over my own destiny, and where I don't I wouldn't have to take crap for it. But it's also because I recognise that everyone has responsibility not merely over oneself.

 

[Flying Pig]

True, but you need to have responsibility for yourself and help out other people, not run their lives for them.

 

[aelf]

True, but you need to have responsibility for yourself and help out other people, not run their lives for them.

Welcome to the complex world of Marxist thought, where nothing is one-dimensional.

 

[Azale]

Hey, can you guys get a room or something?

 

[GoodGame]

Democracy is bad because it demands freedom, even at the cost of lives.

Only when fighting the fascists and communists. Come to think of it, only when doing so after the fascists/communists have invaded. Really not a bad.

Otherwise Democracy tolerates peoples diverse opinions and freedoms and allows them to exercise such...as adults.

 

[Dachs]

Only when fighting the fascists and communists. Come to think of it, only when doing so after the fascists/communists have invaded. Really not a bad.

Otherwise Democracy tolerates peoples diverse opinions and freedoms and allows them to exercise such...as adults.

Where were you the last twenty years?

 

[GoodGame]

Where were you the last twenty years?

Enjoying democracy.

 

[Flying Pig]

I'm with GG on this.

 

[aelf]

Hey, can you guys get a room or something?

A dialogue is not allowed on the forum?

Only when fighting the fascists and communists. Come to think of it, only when doing so after the fascists/communists have invaded. Really not a bad.

So everyone started off living in democracies? Right...

Why do all these professed moderates offer this kind silliness?

Otherwise Democracy tolerates peoples diverse opinions and freedoms and allows them to exercise such...as adults.

Guess you missed the episode with the HUAC, among others.

And why are you assuming that communism don't tolerate those?

 

[Flying Pig]

History? All communist regimes ever have been oppressive towards people who think the wrong thing. I'm not sure I believe the people who say 'ah, but it does not require the example to be followed' - I think the two are linked permenantly

 

[JerichoHill]

So far, all experiments with Communism on a grand scale have led to nasty, nasty things

Not interested. Obviously humans are too flawed for Communism to work. Marx started with poor assumptions about human behavior

 

[Flying Pig]

Or it's just a stupid idea.