Complicity

[abradley]

That other countries have their fair share of disgusting behaviour and indefensible acts does not render my point moot.

" ... Fair share of disgusting behavior ..." is millions dead disgusting behavior? Not to worry, there are plenty of Chinese men, women and children. Millions dead doesn't matter?

 

[Hehehe]

But yet you have time to Kramer into this thread and defend concentration camps, HeHeHe.

It would alarming in and of itself if this was merely a one-off occurance.

As far as I know, the main problem on the actual deathcamps wasn't the lack of toothbrushes (we spent multiple posts debating the connection to Nazi Germany's deathcamps, are you going to argue that toothbrushes are essential to that argument?)

It takes too much time to do the research you require to form an opinion on the thing you've spent multiple posts arguing an opinion on? Do you understand how foolish that sounds? Why post on a matter you cant be bothered to have an informed opinion on?

YOU spent multiple posts arguing about toothbrushes, whereas I took no opinion on the toothbrushes, as I do not consider it a central issue

Defending concentration camps to trigger/own the libs! There's few other explanations that don't require me to bend over backwards and give immense charitability.

Haha look at those silly people, disgusted with the treatment of human beings at the hands of a country that constantly boasts about how well it treat's humans inside it's borders. Imagine being one of those people, imagine actually caring.

Imagine not being rational like HeHeHe, who can rationalize this all away in his mind, almost as if the people suffering in these camps aren't actually people to him or somehow lack some vital quality/essence that could potentially engender sympathy and empathy to him.

What could it be about these people that somehow provokes such indifference?

Do you purposefully invent these strawman arguments? I have never defended concentration camps (which these detainment centers are not). As for immigration control, if you want unlimited immigrants, take it to the ballot box.

There is no such thing as they didn't have the money for it. Unless they made a specific choice to not have the money for it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Trump say there is a crisis at the border? Didn't he specifically ask for money to deal with the crisis?

 

[Yeekim]

it's like a blowtorch on my insides every single day to be honest. ask yourself how often you've bought something from Amazon this year, how often you've had fruit or veggies shipped for literal thousands of miles away, how often you've bought clothes at H&M or other fast fashion outlets, made in Bangladesh.

if you don't hate yourself for speeding up global warming, encouraging child-slavery, loan dumping and horrible work circumstances, then I would argue you're either drinking the kool aid, a sociopath or barely alive. no wonder America needs more powerful sedatives every year.

I'm being reminded of the show The Good Place, where it is revealed that

it’s almost impossible for anyone to be a good person — in fact, it’s been 521 years since any human gained enough life points to enter The Good Place. Something as simple as buying a tomato can result in negative points, because you’re inadvertently supporting the use of pesticides and cheap labour.

It takes research. I'd need to watch the video, research the context, look up the counter-argument from Trump administration. Are they prioritizing food over toothbrushes because they're not being granted all the funding they need? Or is some guy twirling his mustache, thinking to himself "I wonder how I will make these people's lives more difficult today for no other reason than me being evil! Buahaha!!!". I could look it all up, but frankly, I just don't care enough to waste my time on it

After looking into the issue I'm convinced that conditions in those camps are deliberately being kept horrible as part of a conscious policy to deter asylum seekers. That is completely reasonable.
And, given how far they've gone with it, also completely evil.
The existence of such centers is necessary, yes.
They also don't need to feature the amenities of a 3-star hotel.
But keeping children in conditions like these is despicable and evil. There's nothing to excuse this.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Just a FYI, Anne Frank didn't die from being gassed, she died from the various diseases that were rampant in the concentration camps. We have already have had people, including children, die in the American version of these camps.

We have video proof of the Administeration arguing that soap, etc, are not essential hygiene items and are optional, we have video proof of the conditions in said concentration camps on the border, we have video proof of the severe amount of overcrowding present in them.

If you cannot connect the dots, then that is your professed ignorance, not mine, that is your refusal to acknowledge the reality of the situation.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

I genuinely think I'm going to be quitting this world just as the first climate refugee internment camps start popping up and the general feeling among citizens is that noone will give a damn.

yesterday while asleep my girlfriend was mumbling something. I came closer. "we're not gonna do it, are we?" I thought long and hard what she meant, then she said something like "it's getting hotter all the time" and I realized she was having some kind of dream about the end of the world as we know it.

those dreams have become pretty common to me, to be honest. I don't think I'll ever quit, because I'm a voyeur, I want to see it all go down with my own eyes. but yeah, with every day I'm getting less confident about the future of this world.

 

[Hehehe]

After looking into the issue I'm convinced that conditions in those camps are deliberately being kept horrible as part of a conscious policy to deter asylum seekers. That is completely reasonable.
And, given how far they've gone with it, also completely evil.
The existence of such centers is necessary, yes.
They also don't need to feature the amenities of a 3-star hotel.
But keeping children in conditions like these is despicable and evil. There's nothing to excuse this.

I have to say, I am inclined to trust your opinion on this, as you've never come off to me as a hardcore partisan. I will repeat what I said earlier, if it really is the case that they are deliberately being kept miserable (as opposed to a lack of funding) then I would consider that to be morally wrong.

Just a FYI, Anne Frank didn't die from being gassed, she died from the various diseases that were rampant in the concentration camps. We have already have had people, including children, die in the American version of these camps.

We have video proof of the Administeration arguing that soap, etc, are not essential hygiene items and are optional, we have video proof of the conditions in said concentration camps on the border, we have video proof of the severe amount of overcrowding present in them.

If you cannot connect the dots, then that is your professed ignorance, not mine, that is your refusal to acknowledge the reality of the situation.

People die every day. It is tragic. If you think that people in these detention centers are being killed deliberately, then please, for the love of God, take your evidence and go to the police.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

It's not ridiculous at all, you're just looking at it from the wrong perspective. The idea is that you should look at the great things the people of your nation have done in the past and be inspired to live up to that legacy and do great things of your own that will inspire future generations.

why would I look up to the great things that people of my nation have done, and not the great things that people of other nations have done? why should I revere Goethe and Einstein instead of Shakespeare and Turing? are you too blind to see that it's completely arbitrary?

" ... Fair share of disgusting behavior ..." is millions dead disgusting behavior? Not to worry, there are plenty of Chinese men, women and children. Millions dead doesn't matter?

you're being exceedingly stupid again. this is one of the worst arguments I have ever seen, why do righists & friends repeat it ad verbatim again and again? it also seemingly came out of nothing, no one even talked about China nor communism.

everyone here condemns mao, everyone here condems stalin, everyone here condemns pol pot. get it through your thick skull. it's not hard to understand.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Law enforcement are complicit in this Hehehe, but you already know that, that's probably why you ask me to go to them; you know damn well that they will do nothing, as intended.

 

[Senethro]

Death happens, therefore any particular death is excusable.

Genocides happen, therefore any particular genocide can be forgotten.

There is a correct number of child deaths in internment camps.

And you guys wonder why we suspect you of arguing in bad faith...

 

[Hehehe]

Death happens, therefore any particular death is excusable.

Genocides happen, therefore any particular genocide can be forgotten.

There is a correct number of child deaths in internment camps.

And you guys wonder why we suspect you of arguing in bad faith...

I've never "excused" anyone being killed deliberately

 

[Arakhor]

Moderator Action: Connecting race and IQ is absolutely forbidden at CFC. Do not even mention it at any point.

Furthermore, stop trading casual insults lest you wish to be moderated. Being a jerk to someone else doesn't magically make your argument more correct.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Senethro]

Lets look at a particular bit of rhetorical sleight of hand that has happened at least 3 times in this thread.

Person A: *says a thing that someone has done is bad*

Person B: *says another thing someone else did that somewhat parallels the first is also bad*

In its most basic (stupid?) form the implication is that if someone else does it, then it is ok. Person B will be satisfied if A accepts the implication, but if person A challenges that any instance of the event is bad, then person B can point out they did not overtly support it. And indeed they did not. They just stated a thing in a particular context knowing your brain would fill in the gaps. In this second version of the interaction Person B did not in fact say anything at all.

This is why you need to watch out for the guy who pops up and states a "fact" without saying what their interpretation of the significance of the fact is, or what action ought to derive from it. They most definitely mean something by it but make them play by the rules and say what they mean.

 

[El_Machinae]

Law enforcement are complicit in this Hehehe, but you already know that, that's probably why you ask me to go to them; you know damn well that they will do nothing, as intended.

The racist president recently pardoned a member of law enforcement that was found to have intentionally violated people's rights in his quest against illegal immigrants.

The vice president then praised this law enforcement official. The current right-wing is quite tolerant of ratcheting up abuses.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

The racist president recently pardoned a member of law enforcement that was found to have intentionally violated people's rights in his quest against illegal immigrants.

The vice president then praised this law enforcement official. The current right-wing is quite tolerant of ratcheting up abuses.

The Cruelty is the point, my friend.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I think that as long as wings of the government itself is ignoring orders from the rest of the government to stop something illegal, this absolves people not directly involved with the crimes of being complicit in them.

What I mean is that there is a big difference between a government coming to power and committing crimes and the rest of the government supporting it and the cases we have here of the government continuing with child abuse after being ordered to stop. I don't think even people that voted for Trump were giving him license to break laws and certainly all the people who voted against him were not doing so. So when Trump goes on to break the law, he and his cohort are responsible for that and not the population. The government itself is trying to reign this in and is unable to do so because we do not have a system which anticipated dishonest players (and here I mean willfully breaking the law and flaunting it, not just your garden variety campaign promise-breaking politician).

The thing that I am really interested in sussing out is when do these illegal acts require more than simply voting against the government? When do we become morally obligated to march and protest and attempt to disrupt the actions of the government? Is it when child rape in these detention centers becomes more widespread than it already is? (one of the links I previously provided talks about a 3 year old that was sexually abused by a guard) Or is it when the death toll climbs above a hundred? A thousand?

 

[Yeekim]

The thing that I am really interested in sussing out is when do these illegal acts require more than simply voting against the government? When do we become morally obligated to march and protest and attempt to disrupt the actions of the government?

When the protest actually grows large enough that it might actually make a difference. You'll know when that happens.
Until then, apply yourself in some reasonable capacity to make the world a bit better and dont worry overmuch about being complicit in bad things you can not change. Because you can't change everything.
I mean, any one person can only do so much, while the number of worthy causes to champion is potentially endless...

 

[El_Machinae]

Trump pardoned a law enforcement official that was convicted of detaining people based solely on the fact that they were Hispanic

 

[AmazonQueen]

You're confusing yourself. No-one here has excused anything wrong just because something worse has happened somewhere. I've simply argued that comparisons between detention centers and death camps (whether drawn intentionally or implicitly) are illegitimate. And, as we saw, even actual Holocaust survivors agree.

You've provided an example of one who agrees. To claim more is a stretch.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

You've provided an example of one who agrees. To claim more is a stretch.

It's also a dishonest comparison. No one is comparing our detention centers to death camps. There were three main types of camps that the Nazis used (with a lot of overlap and multi-purpose camps) - work camps, concentration camps and extermination camps. It's the middle one that our government is creating. Efforts to say that people are claiming otherwise (that our government is building extermination centers) are just efforts to derail the discussion.

 

[AmazonQueen]

It's also a dishonest comparison. No one is comparing our detention centers to death camps. There were three main types of camps that the Nazis used (with a lot of overlap and multi-purpose camps) - work camps, concentration camps and extermination camps. It's the middle one that our government is creating. Efforts to say that people are claiming otherwise (that our government is building extermination centers) are just efforts to derail the discussion.

A better point than mine.