Complicity

[Berzerker]

Making stuff for themselves perhaps? Instead of running the damn country as if it were an (industrial) plantation economy.

Every country has to go thru the same process of making cheap stuff followed by improving conditions and labor laws, but they need that bottom rung of the ladder to start climbing. Telling the people of Bangladesh to make stuff for themselves as we buy clothes from Jordan or Vietnam wont help them climb out of a hole.

 

[El_Machinae]

The only thing us buying from them provides is hard currency. Hard currency is very valuable if you are able to make use of it. But if the hard currency is quickly siphoned away from people, it doesn't provide much benefit.

 

[innonimatu]

The only thing us buying from them provides is hard currency. Hard currency is very valuable if you are able to make use of it. But if the hard currency is quickly siphoned away from people, it doesn't provide much benefit.

Exactly. What these trade relations then become is an incentive for what has been called "comprador" group of people within those countries to maintain a tight grip on power and keep the status quo of profiting from very exploited local labour. Their profits are converted to dollars and sent away, t be safe from "unrest" by the lower orders of society. While their countries go through periodic financial crisis as the governments they control carry on policies to facilitate this export of capital.
See Argentina for s stark example... and that one was not even particularly poor to start with! the poorer countries are more usually the victims of this system, but they're not the only ones that can suffer.

 

[Lexicus]

Some of the worst offenders are the absolute monarchies in the Gulf: Qatar, Saudi Arabia. The royal families of those two countries has massive amounts of assets in the West, sheltered from the people of those countries by Western legal systems.

 

[El_Machinae]

Keep in mind, there is still some growth. Hard currency will be used to buy improvements. But it's not guaranteed to lead to systemic growth, where people increasingly trade each other for ever-superior outputs.

 

[Birdjaguar]

...So at what point, in your mind, did slavery become immoral?

Give us the year, maybe even the month, day and hour that it became so.

When did or does slavery become immoral?

This didn't seem to get answered. And of course the answer is "It depends".
First, one has to decide if there are objectively immoral things and how humans collectively know those or how individual humans know them.

Then you have the problem of what slavery means. There is a long history of different kinds of slavery: debt slavery, chattel slavery, warrior slavery, religious slavery, serfdom, prisoners of war, political enslavement, etc.

Then there is the time and place issue. If the immorality of slavery is not innate to humans or universally taught, then things get relative. There were ancient individuals who saw slavery as immoral and for them slavery become immoral when they had that revelation. When enough people or a strong ruler felt that way, then in that place It might have become immoral.

Then you have the question whether banning slavery of some or all types mean you think it is immoral?

In 1772 England ended slavery in England
In 1807 the UK abolished slave trading
In 1815 the Congress of Vienna declares its opposition to Slavery
In 1949 Slavery abolished in Kuwait

In 1926 the League of Nations proposed a Convention to Suppress the slave trade and slavery. From 1953 - 2008 countries around the world were ratifying that convention.

So to have your answer: It depends. Unless you can show that there is an objective, outside of humanity morality that humans have always had ready access to.

Oh, BTW, are those ants that enslave guilty of immoral acts?

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Every country has to go thru the same process of making cheap stuff followed by improving conditions and labor laws, but they need that bottom rung of the ladder to start climbing. Telling the people of Bangladesh to make stuff for themselves as we buy clothes from Jordan or Vietnam wont help them climb out of a hole.

complete bullcrap. in fact, if anything what is stopping these countries from developing economically is precisely huge western companies artificially keeping wages low, being nepotistic, creating dependency.

Oh, BTW, are those ants that enslave guilty of immoral acts?

View attachment 531197

how do you know whether ants don't do everything completely voluntarily, (or more likely they just don't have a concept of will or morality anyway which makes the question arbitrary).

I believe in the voluntary ant/bee/termite

 

[Yeekim]

complete bullcrap. in fact, if anything what is stopping these countries from developing economically is precisely huge western companies artificially keeping wages low, being nepotistic, creating dependency

That is certainly an unorthodox view.
Huge western companies creating jobs to produce manufactured goods for export ... conventional wisdom suggests this would increase demand for labor and bring revenue and knowhow to country, hence driving wages up...

@Birdjaguar If this is supposed to be a map about where slavery was abolished when, Russia is off by 138 years.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_reform_of_1861

 

[yung.carl.jung]

That is certainly an unorthodox view.
Huge western companies creating jobs to produce manufactured goods for export ... conventional wisdom suggests this would increase demand for labor and bring revenue and knowhow to country, hence driving wages up...

@Birdjaguar If this is supposed to be a map about where slavery was abolished when, Russia is off by 138 years.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_reform_of_1861

and how exactly did it turn out when huge western companies went to Africa for example? what exactly did they do? stole natural ressources, destroyed the environment and corrupted a good portion of their soil (thank you, aluminum factories!), supported some of the worst dictatorships and warlords imagineable, often dump-sold assets (a popular economic "tactic" back then), aided political corruption.. all around a grea track record

 

[Yeekim]

and how exactly did it turn out when huge western companies went to Africa for example? what exactly did they do? stole natural ressources, destroyed the environment and corrupted a good portion of their soil (thank you, aluminum factories!), supported some of the worst dictatorships and warlords imagineable, often dump-sold assets (a popular economic "tactic" back then), aided political corruption.. all around a great track record

Money can be wasted or misused - that does not mean it is not generally useful. Foreign investment is beneficial for any country with half-decent governance.
But in its absence... yes, I see your point. Natural resources can indeed be plundered with little but environmental destruction to show for it

 

[Birdjaguar]

@Birdjaguar If this is supposed to be a map about where slavery was abolished when, Russia is off by 138 years.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_reform_of_1861

Two different events. In 1723 Peter the Great abolished household slavery by turning them into serfs. Then in 1861 serfdom was abolished. So, if you consider serfdom slavery, you are correct, but if you treat them as not the same, then you have two related, but not the same events. Nice catch.

 

[El_Machinae]

Money can be wasted or misused - that does not mean it is not generally useful. Foreign investment is beneficial for any country with half-decent governance.
But in its absence... yes, I see your point. Natural resources can indeed be plundered with little but environmental destruction to show for it

It's not just plundering. It's when race-to-the-bottom policies allows all of the profits from trading in hard currency to migrate upwards. Now, there will be a demand-side benefit, where there will be a functional increase in wages. But it won't be the type that allows the ratcheting-upwards that we associate with economic growth. That's why some people describe the export phase of a nation as 'necessary', because they're assuming ratcheting growth. But it needn't happen if the profits flow upwards too quickly.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I would say that Trump and the GOP are complicit in the ever increasing number of white-supremacist shooters, to get back on to the topic

For example, another shooter has referenced the great replacement theory and Hispanics apparently "invading", which is suspiciously similar to the **** that trump peddles and the GOP swallows.

 

[Yeekim]

It's not just plundering. It's when race-to-the-bottom policies allows all of the profits from trading in hard currency to migrate upwards. Now, there will be a demand-side benefit, where there will be a functional increase in wages. But it won't be the type that allows the ratcheting-upwards that we associate with economic growth. That's why some people describe the export phase of a nation as 'necessary', because they're assuming ratcheting growth. But it needn't happen if the profits flow upwards too quickly.

Well, I still think export-phase is necessary. Sadly, it is not a guaranteed path to an improvement though. Matter of fact, nothing is...

 

[El_Machinae]

Well, I still think export-phase is necessary. Sadly, it is not a guaranteed path to an improvement though. Matter of fact, nothing is...

It's not 'necessary', but it absolutely can help. Hard currency and a greater diversification of goods really can leapfrog growth. There are many reasons why free trade looks good on paper, and a lot of them are true.
But, with a simple thought experiment, I can show why export. is not 'necessary'. Earth is currently undergoing economic growth, and we don't have exports to Mars that we're trading for capital and technology.

Trade creates growth. But capital can flow upwards too quickly, and severely limit growth. These are both true things. Export can absolutely be the game-winning move for the citizenry.

 

[El_Machinae]

They're not opponents, they're being held for political reasons. You aren't that obtuse are you?

I wonder if we can find Trump-supporting posters who explicitly declare that illegal immigrants are part of a long-run game to turn the country more Democrat?

The answer is 'yes'. Yes we can.

 

[Gorbles]

I wonder if we can find Trump-supporting posters who explicitly declare that illegal immigrants are part of a long-run game to turn the country more Democrat?

The answer is 'yes'. Yes we can.

I don't even think we need to do that.

 

[brennan]

I wonder if we can find Trump-supporting posters who explicitly declare that illegal immigrants are part of a long-run game to turn the country more Democrat?

As an aside, in the UK we have 'building council houses creates Labour voters'.

 

[Berzerker]

complete bullcrap. in fact, if anything what is stopping these countries from developing economically is precisely huge western companies artificially keeping wages low, being nepotistic, creating dependency.

what were the wages before western investment?

 

[El_Machinae]

It's when race-to-the-bottom policies allows all of the profits from trading in hard currency to migrate upwards. Now, there will be a demand-side benefit, where there will be a functional increase in wages. But it won't be the type that allows the ratcheting-upwards that we associate with economic growth.