Corona Virus: Who's fault and how can we hold it accountable?

[H4run]

Size something 15-20% of total Chinese economy

You sure? In 2004 Wet Market was worth for around 100 billion yuan, it's tiny in comparison to Chinese gigantic GDP that reach 2 trillion yuan in 2004.

 

[Hrothbern]

You sure? In 2004 Wet Market was worth for around 100 billion yuan, it's tiny in comparison to Chinese gigantic GDP that reach 2 trillion yuan in 2004.

yes

I was not clear enough in my wording
Wet market is part of that informal economy and not an isolated business
and lots of normal meat like pork goes as well through that informal economy, hardly hygienic
How do I say it
It's not mafia, it's not 100% clean, there are always loans needed without banks, networks of people, rules and "rules" and civil servants.

 

[Hrothbern]

I think that Xi Jinping made with this Covid the biggest mistake in his career... and little chance he can make a bigger one in the future.

Too distracted by the Trump trade war, the elections in Taiwan, the HongKong issue... and the basic weakness of this type of strongmen: high treshold to give an important message
Hubei did what it was supposed to do in such a system in such a situation: get rid of the issue... one way or the other.
I do not think it was all planned.
But once the situation was clear for Xi Jinping mid January... would it really be in his interest to contain the virus in China ?
To make the rest of the world clear how bad it was.
And our politicians were governing by neglect, naive snore mode.

What do Chinese say ?
When the Emperor dies the village mourns, when the village chief dies the village celebrates.
Xi Jinping has by Chinese tradition seemingly all the cards.

But this virus is not "contagious" like religion and cannot be adressed in the way China was dealing with "contagious" religions.
Covid is on the desk of the Emperor and none other.

Let's see how the meanwhile more assertive younger Chinese generations will handle the coming years not at the usual strong yearly wage increases... not with the usual perspectives.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I think that Xi Jinping made with this Covid the biggest mistake in his career... and little chance he can make a bigger one in the future.

Too distracted by the Trump trade war, the elections in Taiwan, the HongKong issue... and the basic weakness of this type of strongmen: high treshold to give an important message
Hubei did what it was supposed to do in such a system in such a situation: get rid of the issue... one way or the other.
I do not think it was all planned.
But once the situation was clear for Xi Jinping mid January... would it really be in his interest to contain the virus in China ?
To make the rest of the world clear how bad it was.
And our politicians were governing by neglect, naive snore mode.

What do Chinese say ?
When the Emperor dies the village mourns, when the village chief dies the village celebrates.
Xi Jinping has by Chinese tradition seemingly all the cards.

But this virus is not "contagious" like religion and cannot be adressed in the way China was dealing with "contagious" religions.
Covid is on the desk of the Emperor and none other.

Let's see how the meanwhile more assertive younger Chinese generations will handle the coming years not at the usual strong yearly wage increases... not with the usual perspectives.

Can they not say, accurately enough, that while they were harsh the Chinese internal containment methods did work better than the more liberated societies could come anywhere near matching? The Chinese economy is going to suffer a whole lot more because of the worldwide economic consequences of the virus than it is going to suffer from any internal failures, and I don't think the Chinese government will have a hard time convincing the citizenry of that.

 

[Hrothbern]

Can they not say, accurately enough, that while they were harsh the Chinese internal containment methods did work better than the more liberated societies could come anywhere near matching? The Chinese economy is going to suffer a whole lot more because of the worldwide economic consequences of the virus than it is going to suffer from any internal failures, and I don't think the Chinese government will have a hard time convincing the citizenry of that.

oh yes
I would see that as very plausible and also easy to implement
And Chinese see us like so many other Asian and Middle East people and governments as weakened by decadence

But somehow the Paradise years of the last decades get that discontinuity.
Populations can be a hungry mob once accustomed to material growth
It's I think all about that sustainable balance between an obedience system and indulgence.

 

[FriendlyFire]

The Wet Market was the exact same place where they traced Sars in 2003, they directly shut-down the market and ban wild life farming. However few months later they removed the wild life farming ban and revived the market. But the question is, should we crucifies Trump and other incompetent leader to atones the sin of the great CPC? If not they should carries their own burden.

How many other poor third world countries allow the eating of wild animals especially bats ? Should we also smash Indonesia if the next out break appears from there ?
China should have close it down, but was forgiven because it was still a developing country. It did put in place a system for monitoring and reporting the outbreak however due to corruption the local authorities attempted to cover it up
I want to see China carry out punishment of those responsible.

Trump is a [censored] moron

 

[Birdjaguar]

The city of Changsha and Hunan province are opening its schools step by step. Middle schools and HS are open now, elementary will follow after an assessment. The time table is flexible. No word yet on colleges. Other provinces with low rates of infection are also opening schools.

 

[H4run]

I gotta work to do this day, but this post by FF need to be answer.

How many other poor third world countries allow the eating of wild animals especially bats ? Should we also smash Indonesia if the next out break appears from there ?

This is important thank you for asking so I can clear this out. Look there shouldn't be no exclusion in justice, that's include Indonesia, I bash how Indonesian handle this Covid more than I bash China, if you read what I wrote about Indonesia you will agree with what I said, rest assured FF.

But here also another important thing that we need to clear out, we are not bashing China solely because they are happened to be the host of world epidemic for the second time, but we do it because the virus was traced back to the wet market for the second time, while they keep re-opening the womb of the epidemic regardless that fact, what are we hoping with this FF? are we waiting for the third epidemic?

Your statement that China not the only one who consume wild animals is on spot and a very fair point, however there are many other factor beside selling or consuming wild animal that at play here, some of it we know: like the massive variety of the animals that have been sold over-there, the huge scale of the market without properly balancing it with proper planned hygiene, the condition of the animal that is been sold over-there (they are treated with less to no care, that many results to bleeding and that their blood were dripping over other animal cage) and many other factor. Some of it we not yet know and we should (especially the Chinese government who are in need of that market) give a proper attention and research about it.

Alright lets say they cannot live without that market, and it's need to be re-open for one or many other reason, we may give the third chance but only with a proper safety measure, is that too much to ask? But instead they always revived it as it is without re-regulating the trading practices, without further regulating the commodities that been sold over-there (there are endangered animal been sold there), without regulating the minimal standard of hygiene, without regulating the treatment of animal that is been cage over-there, I can still go on and on, and we cannot turn a blind eyes on that and blame other leader instead, can we?

....due to corruption the local authorities attempted to cover it up
I want to see China carry out punishment of those responsible.

I'm with you here 100 percent.

 

[ciquta]

Considering that China was mostly locked-down by the end of January, I think the amount of blame on China here is again just avoiding the reality. That nomatter which country it originated it, their leaders would've downplayed the severity and the impact as some countries are still wilfully doing.

By all means, hold China to account. But hold China to account the same way as any other country should be.

one thing is ignoring wilfully after you know the real numbers (as a very few countries did)

One whole different situation is when you don't know the numbers cos China lied through its teeth. I myself after looking at Chinese numbers thought it was a much milder disease, laughed at people with mask, and went abroad 2 times even after first cases in my country.. I just couldn't imagine!

Italy went to full lockdown 16days after discover first case (21feb to 8march). China found the first case in mid nov and still MORE THAN 2 MONTHS LATER their people was allowed to go abroad. Italian gov had to block on ITS SIDE flights from China (it did so on 12feb, but the first Italian case was already contracted in late Jan through a business meeting with a Chinese in Germany).


And you know what?
Yes you're right, it's the western world who deserves the blame, not for the virus but for not having the balls to trade embargo China.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Better obey the WHO or else, the UN will issue a strongly worded warning. /s

WHO urges countries to close 'dangerous' wet markets
Dr David Nabarro said the WHO was not able to tell governments what to do but its advice was clear about the dangers of wet markets.

"You know how WHO and other parts of the international system work – we don't have the capacity to police the world," he said. "Instead, what we have to do is offer advice and guidance, and there's very clear advice from the Food and Agriculture Organisation and the WHO ... that says really there are real dangers in these kinds of environments.

 

[H4run]

@FriendlyFire this is pretty much the first step, WHO like @Hrothbern stated may not have an independent power on its own, it's pretty much relies to other "sponsor" (correct wording?) nation that can use its legitimacy to back up their action.

But at least with this "condemnation" public opinion is/will be formed that the re-opening of the wet market is bad, and what the CPC do/did is wrong.

The second step will be to decide what actually the materialization of "else" in the words "or else". If that is done, and manifest into action then justice is being served. That place is like a huge factory of germs and virus. The dark mother of epidemic.

 

[FriendlyFire]

I gotta work to do this day, but this post by FF need to be answer.

This is important thank you for asking so I can clear this out. Look there shouldn't be no exclusion in justice, that's include Indonesia, I bash how Indonesian handle this Covid more than I bash China, if you read what I wrote about Indonesia you will agree with what I said, rest assured FF.

But here also another important thing that we need to clear out, we are not bashing China solely because they are happened to be the host of world epidemic for the second time, but we do it because the virus was traced back to the wet market for the second time, while they keep re-opening the womb of the epidemic regardless that fact, what are we hoping with this FF? are we waiting for the third epidemic?

Your statement that China not the only one who consume wild animals is on spot and a very fair point, however there are many other factor beside selling or consuming wild animal that at play here, some of it we know: like the massive variety of the animals that have been sold over-there, the huge scale of the market without properly balancing it with proper planned hygiene, the condition of the animal that is been sold over-there (they are treated with less to no care, that many results to bleeding and that their blood were dripping over other animal cage) and many other factor. Some of it we not yet know and we should (especially the Chinese government who are in need of that market) give a proper attention and research about it.

Alright lets say they cannot live without that market, and it's need to be re-open for one or many other reason, we may give the third chance but only with a proper safety measure, is that too much to ask? But instead they always revived it as it is without re-regulating the trading practices, without further regulating the commodities that been sold over-there (there are endangered animal been sold there), without regulating the minimal standard of hygiene, without regulating the treatment of animal that is been cage over-there, I can still go on and on, and we cannot turn a blind eyes on that and blame other leader instead, can we?

I'm with you here 100 percent.

First China has paid a steep price in loss of human lives, economy as well as what little prestige it had with the international community. It pretty much set itself on fire with cornavirus in an act of incompetence
If you look at the Swine Flu in China and why they keep having these disasters destroying their pork industry its because much of the country is still backwards. Now this is not to excuse the Chinese but it explains why China keeps having these outbreaks.
Between Sars and Corna the US has had two outbreaks as well Bird Flu and H1N1, We also had Ebola from Africa and MERS from the Middle East.

China should be held responsible for its part, and it dose have a lot to answer for given its failure
But we need to keep in mind the circumstances that lead up to this.

We cannot turn a blind eye to this, and no one is suggesting that. But China is now number 2 in the world and that is not going to change anytime soon. We need to figure out a way to deal with the Chinese government.
I dont know what the right answer is for this but I know that just scapegoating all the blame on China is the wrong move.

 

[Hrothbern]

First China has paid a steep price in loss of human lives, economy as well as what little prestige it had with the international community. It pretty much set itself on fire with cornavirus in an act of incompetence
If you look at the Swine Flu in China and why they keep having these disasters destroying their pork industry its because much of the country is still backwards. Now this is not to excuse the Chinese but it explains why China keeps having these outbreaks.
Between Sars and Corna the US has had two outbreaks as well Bird Flu and H1N1, We also had Ebola from Africa and MERS from the Middle East.

China should be held responsible for its part, and it dose have a lot to answer for given its failure
But we need to keep in mind the circumstances that lead up to this.

We cannot turn a blind eye to this, and no one is suggesting that. But China is now number 2 in the world and that is not going to change anytime soon. We need to figure out a way to deal with the Chinese government.
I dont know what the right answer is for this but I know that just scapegoating all the blame on China is the wrong move.

The reluctance of the rest of the world to react fast with closing business and tourism air flights from China is I think a combi of general diplomatic prudence, general politics inertia and the economical power position of China in trade of semi-essentials, whereby China is getting more and more teeth the last two decades in wielding assertive soft power.

Taiwan having no qualms at all regarding China, reacted already in December.
The public awareness level from SARS helped the government avoiding being accused of panick.