Corona Virus: Who's fault and how can we hold it accountable?

[Timsup2nothin]

Well if you are talking before the Pandemic, no one consider such risk before that. However after the symptom it is quite clear that containment should come directly as it surfaced/known, and China have been recorded to dismiss and down-play such possibility, it is been recorded that CCP intimidated and punished the Doctor, there is a reason why we remember the Doctor as whistle-blower, a very good reason also, for me not recognizing Chinese's dismissal regarding his report, it's the same with not honoring his sacrifices after been silenced by his government, and that is also the same with supporting Chinese oppression against its people and nation. CCP are not Chinese people, they are government structure, by bashing it it's the same with bashing any corrupted government, be that my government or Trump administration. People should remember that.

More than fair. I don't know enough about the doctor in question to have an informed opinion here.

 

[H4run]

More than fair. I don't know enough about the doctor in question to have an informed opinion here.

I appreciate your sportivity (right word?) truly.

 

[tetley]

Are you referring that America, Israel or Russia have the possibility to plant the virus in China? I maybe misread this because of my English may betrayed my understanding, but am I understand this right?

Yes. China held the World Military Games in October 2019.
https://www.businessinsider.com/chi...rmy-maybe-brought-coronavirus-to-wuhan-2020-3
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Military_World_Games

Shortly thereafter in the beginning of November 2019, the virus was discovered to be a problem in Wuhan.


China (the host), Russia (the 2nd-place winner), or the U.S. (who had a strangely pathetic showing at the games, but hung out at the Wuhan market where the virus started, and is engaged is an extensive love-hate Cold War with China) could have planted the virus there. Not so much Israel, because they weren't there. However, Israel has much more motive towards something like a MERS virus, which would genetically favor Middle Easterners. All of these countries have an extensive track record of lying to you. And of course nothing ties it down to being an act of bioterrorism perpetrated at that particular event, or by any sovereign governmental power at all.

And it's pretty safe to say that if this all started as an act of bioterrorism, then obviously those people should be held responsible.

 

[innonimatu]

If it had been bioterrorism in action, it should be the end of spate bioterrorism. Ad it is by now proven that viruses can spread and cause damage everywhere. Talk about blowback.

In fact irrespective of any conspiracy theories or eventual facts (which I very much doubt), this should be evidence that any bioweapons programmes, anywhere, and a threat to making and must be eliminated.

t is unfortunate that practical research in the firld can so easily be repurposed to state bioterrorism. But the best way to handle that risk is to make sure that the military are not allowed to touch this field at all.

 

[r16]

the military games thing only provides an useful venue of finger pointing . If this was an operation it would be practically impossible to track the shipment of the pathogen . This anthrax scare in the US , never caught the people mailing them , the only dead being an English expat working in the media and a too vocal talker against Dabya , was he not ?

unless of course , the perpetrator wants to wave the red cape in the face of the Chinese bull , but that would be impossibly complicated to be ever debated . Like who needs "China attacked us out of the blue" line while owning thousands of nukes ?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I appreciate your sportivity (right word?) truly.

As of now sportivity isn't a real word, but I like it and understood the intent. Thanks.

 

[Farm Boy]

There's good sportivity in a properly rogue nominalization.

 

[H4run]

Yes. China held the World Military Games in October 2019.
https://www.businessinsider.com/chi...rmy-maybe-brought-coronavirus-to-wuhan-2020-3
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Military_World_Games

Shortly thereafter in the beginning of November 2019, the virus was discovered to be a problem in Wuhan.


China (the host), Russia (the 2nd-place winner), or the U.S. (who had a strangely pathetic showing at the games, but hung out at the Wuhan market where the virus started, and is engaged is an extensive love-hate Cold War with China) could have planted the virus there. Not so much Israel, because they weren't there. However, Israel has much more motive towards something like a MERS virus, which would genetically favor Middle Easterners. All of these countries have an extensive track record of lying to you. And of course nothing ties it down to being an act of bioterrorism perpetrated at that particular event, or by any sovereign governmental power at all.

And it's pretty safe to say that if this all started as an act of bioterrorism, then obviously those people should be held responsible.

If it had been bioterrorism in action, it should be the end of spate bioterrorism. Ad it is by now proven that viruses can spread and cause damage everywhere. Talk about blowback.

In fact irrespective of any conspiracy theories or eventual facts (which I very much doubt), this should be evidence that any bioweapons programmes, anywhere, and a threat to making and must be eliminated.

t is unfortunate that practical research in the firld can so easily be repurposed to state bioterrorism. But the best way to handle that risk is to make sure that the military are not allowed to touch this field at all.

You guys saying these are plausible? In my mind, be that US or Russia (Israel out of equation as mentioned before) the virus now pretty much bite both of the country back and hard right now, so what is the benefit of this operation for both country? Any weapon, includes biochemical weapon, should be calculated and have a planned spectrum of damage in order fo it to be usable, either it spread fast and kill fast, or it kills slow but has limited transmission, while Covid-19 not only spread fast and kills slow, even worst than that because 50 percent of the carrier are not showing any symptoms. If any institution can carry such operation perhaps it's not US nor Russia, it can be either pharmacist company or masker seller (toilet paper seller perhaps?).

This narration is not foreign for me, similar conspiracy theory with same nuance also spread here, I don't buy it hence I'm not really read it seriously just skim it, the aim of the operation is to launch a global vaccine to control population of the over-populated world, some narration even add another heinous plan to inject micro-chip to our body to spy and control world citizen. The same narration also spread in Chinese social media while so far the CPC government do nothing to purge it-which they can if they want to, and they usually did if they don't like it. This is also coincide with the current strict restriction of foreigner in China, that is so much it even can be consider to be discrimination. The CPC government called many public facility to be extra cautious or temporary not accepting foreign customer in order to contained the virus from spreading-only targeting foreigner, as if it's coming not within China but from outside of China-but funnily Chinese citizen that came from aboard doesn't received similar treatment.

In summary, I just don't see this thing plausible, even though it is, China still should warn the world earlier!

 

[innonimatu]

The "very much doubt" means I do not find it plausible at all. But there is a possibility that it can happen, plenty of mad people in the world. The very idea of keeping bioweapons labs is mad, and they still exist.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The only useful bio-weapon is one you have a cure for. If someone had popped up with a miracle vaccine before their economy collapsed under a lockdown maybe I'd buy it, but at this point it obviously wasn't a weapon.

 

[Zardnaar]

The only useful bio-weapon is one you have a cure for. If someone had popped up with a miracle vaccine before their economy collapsed under a lockdown maybe I'd buy it, but at this point it obviously wasn't a weapon.

It's a crap bioweapon as well. Not fatal enough and hits you.

Might have escaped from a lab near the wet market but that's plan old incompetence.

Wouldn't be the first time that's happened.

 

[Arwon]

Also very much worth noting that Europe has been the main global spreader of the pandemic - Travel from and within Europe preceded the first coronavirus cases in at least 93 countries across all five continents, accounting for more than half of the world’s index cases.

Hell even Mongolia's first case came from France after they'd already closed borders to China. Basically, across the world, travel limitations on Europe came a lot later, and those countries also locked down a fair bit later.

 

[aelf]

Europe is the epicentre of the 'second wave', no doubt. I think the initial outbreak was quite limited to Hubei and the 'first wave' carriers were mainly only Wuhan residents. It was only after they spread it to Europe and mass infections happened there that it got really bad, as the world was not aware of the situation and took no action. And then there are clowns like Trump and BoJo.

Probably why China has been able to fly under the radar despite its serious missteps.

 

[H4run]

When I think about what Arwon said I think the fact that Euro, as Arwon put it, one of the main global spreader of epidemic, actually not and should not be the core concern of our dispute and discussion-at least this time. It's a tough and tricky job that can end us up to be "victim blaming". The most important factor that we should heavily focus is on how the containment working after the Epidemic emerged. This is what the epidemic host most responsible with.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Europe is the epicentre of the 'second wave', no doubt. I think the initial outbreak was quite limited to Hubei and the 'first wave' carriers were mainly only Wuhan residents. It was only after they spread it to Europe and mass infections happened there that it got really bad, as the world was not aware of the situation and took no action. And then there are clowns like Trump and BoJo.

Probably why China has been able to fly under the radar despite its serious missteps.

I was just looking at a timeline thing that showed the first confirmed human to human case in the US was January 30th. The WHO promptly called it a world wide emergency. That is maybe seven days after the the Chinese confirmed human to human transfer.

So, if there had been prompt action on January thirtieth we could say "if only the Chinese had been more up front that action could have been taken seven days earlier." But the fact is that there was no particular action taken at that point anyway, so all that can really be said is "we could have gotten the doing nothing started so much quicker." In the US no one did ____ until mid-march.

 

[H4run]

Consider also other more responsible nation (with more responsible head of state) can anticipate if they know earlier. Even so you put only US into equation and other not matter, that itself doesn't abolish CPC fault for information covered up.

 

[aelf]

I was just looking at a timeline thing that showed the first confirmed human to human case in the US was January 30th. The WHO promptly called it a world wide emergency. That is maybe seven days after the the Chinese confirmed human to human transfer.

So, if there had been prompt action on January thirtieth we could say "if only the Chinese had been more up front that action could have been taken seven days earlier." But the fact is that there was no particular action taken at that point anyway, so all that can really be said is "we could have gotten the doing nothing started so much quicker." In the US no one did ____ until mid-march.

If you're talking about the US maybe. But I'm not just talking about the US.

And, again, waiting for China to confirm something is probably not the wisest idea.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

If you're talking about the US maybe. But I'm not just talking about the US.

And, again, waiting for China to confirm something is probably not the wisest idea.

I agree. The point is that no matter what China was saying there was confirmed person to person transfer in the US and the US wasn't making any secret of it, so any country that was still waiting on China at that point really had no reason to be. Did any country really start doing anything when WHO declared the emergency? End of January. I mean, the sticking point complaint seems to be that WHO didn't declare soon enough, but if nobody actually did anything when they did declare what difference would an earlier declaration have really made?

Trump is trying to stir up trouble about how "the WHO should have declared the emergency sooner (by what? a week? two weeks? heck, call it a month) when in the US nothing was done about the emergency declaration for six more weeks anyway, other than at least one GOP senator clearing their stock portfolio.

 

[r16]

it is a perfect bioweapon . Doesn't kill so that everyone will catch it and become far more vulnerable when phase two starts , when demands are unmet .

or it was a perfect bioweapon because the Caucasians have only 1/6 of the vulnerable genes or whatever , you know , before it mutated host to host and chicken are coming home to roost .

or it will be defined as the perfect bioweapon , because you can't just stop people thinking when Trump wins in November , with MORE votes than 42 000 that let him win back in '16 . Yes , ı have no interest in a map that searches for a correlation between the spread of the virus and voting preferences .

 

[aelf]

I agree. The point is that no matter what China was saying there was confirmed person to person transfer in the US and the US wasn't making any secret of it, so any country that was still waiting on China at that point really had no reason to be. Did any country really start doing anything when WHO declared the emergency? End of January. I mean, the sticking point complaint seems to be that WHO didn't declare soon enough, but if nobody actually did anything when they did declare what difference would an earlier declaration have really made?

Trump is trying to stir up trouble about how "the WHO should have declared the emergency sooner (by what? a week? two weeks? heck, call it a month) when in the US nothing was done about the emergency declaration for six more weeks anyway, other than at least one GOP senator clearing their stock portfolio.

Well, let me clarify. I don't think it was realistically possible for WHO to declare much earlier, because it was probably politically impossible to do so. So I'm really not hung up about the declaration.

China's responsibility lies mainly in controlling the spread beyond Wuhan, and it failed miserably in doing so. This was around and before 25th January. And given its tendencies, I have little doubt that it's always trying to hide as much information as it can for political reasons.

The problem with the WHO is how much it buys into China's narrative. The repeated praises of China were also gratuitous and especially suspicious. This raises the question of how much leverage China has over the WHO. And WHO's ignoring of Taiwan doesn't help, although that could be a more general UN problem.