Corona Virus: Who's fault and how can we hold it accountable?

[Timsup2nothin]

Is there really anyone in a good position to be saying "hey, China, you did a crappy job on this"?

I guess if Gavin Newsome wants to take a swing at it I'd back that play. Current mortality is only about 0.16 per million, which is about as good as it gets. Peak is pushed all the way out to around the late middle of May and is not expected to break our capacities. But I'd rather he focus on asking Trump WTH is wrong with him.

 

[ciquta]

China lied on numbers and did nothing to contain even after the leaders were well aware of the situation.

Us italians paid the big toll just because lack of correct information from China. Nothing less.

China had first cases in Nov and its leaders knew NO LATER than 1st week of Jan (probably before). And they still let their people travel everywhere without informing anybody.

We had known the seriousness of the REAL numbers we could have taken right measures a couple of weeks in advance.
Instead, still in mid February many believed it was a milder emergency according to their fake numbers (some leaders like Sweden and Brazil still believe so, but that's another political issue.. they will soon learn the hard way just like BoJo).
Those few weeks were EXTREMELY sensitive for the magnitude of contamination.


I don't believe for a second the virus was made on purpose, but I don't think also they made efforts to contain inside their borders.. I think they saw the opportunity and acted deliberately to take advantage from it.


Either way they are responsible

 

[FriendlyFire]

I don't believe for a second the virus was made on purpose, but I don't think also they made efforts to contain inside their borders.. I think they saw the opportunity and acted deliberately to take advantage from it.
Either way they are responsible

China offical deaths numbers are almost certain to be pure propaganda, most think that 40,000+ Chinese have died, a terriable price
I doubt Chinese leaders would set their own country on fire, especially letting everyone travel home for Chinese new year and spreading the virus far and wide within China itself

However it is still a major failure by the Chinese government and a lot of the responsibility for their part in the Cornavirus should rightly be blamed on them.

 

[Gorbles]

Considering that China was mostly locked-down by the end of January, I think the amount of blame on China here is again just avoiding the reality. That nomatter which country it originated it, their leaders would've downplayed the severity and the impact as some countries are still wilfully doing.

By all means, hold China to account. But hold China to account the same way as any other country should be. They don't get a "bad luck, overkill time" response solely for being the first to respond to such a crisis. The US has far more numbers than China had at Christmas, and the US' handling is still horrendous. People could have had it in the States and spread it further despite China being on lockdown - where's the condemnation for that?

Really, what we need to decide is what we're actually arguing about. Is anybody here actually opposed to handing China a portion of the blame? Any portion of the blame? I don't think so. So we need to move past that, and onto other countries and how liable they are for their part in the pandemic (in this, for the record @ciquta, I'm not blaming Italy in the slightest).

 

[aelf]

China lies. It's a big thing about it - it's not just any country. Maybe Trumpistan and some other unsavoury countries would do it too, I don't know.

Is there really anyone in a good position to be saying "hey, China, you did a crappy job on this"?

Yes. Taiwan, Hong Kong and even Singapore. Maybe NZ and some other Western countries too (Canada?).

 

[H4run]

China lies. It's a big thing about it - it's not just any country. Maybe Trumpistan and some other unsavoury countries would do it too, I don't know.

I laugh so hard when I read Trumpistan

 

[Bamspeedy]

Yes. Taiwan, Hong Kong and even Singapore. Maybe NZ and some other Western countries too (Canada?).

Deaths per million, with China at only 2, you can exclude Canada.
List of those below 2 is the ones you mentioned, including NZ and Japan, tiny island countries and territories, most of africa, Russia (temporarily), then you got a bunch of others, but there are other explanations for those (Mongolia, Afghanistan, Laos, Vietnam, some in Central America, etc.)

 

[El_Machinae]

Considering that China is run by a brutal and authoritarian dictatorship, it's okay to try to spin some blame on the CPC in order to score political points. There's a threshold, so that you don't alienate your audience or create reactance

But turning the screws on them is both fair and warranted. Al Capone was nailed on tax evasion, but no one minds that he was nailed extra hard because he was a scummy and evil person who deserved social censure.

 

[Farm Boy]

It's an interesting day for nails.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Yes. Taiwan, Hong Kong and even Singapore. Maybe NZ and some other Western countries too (Canada?).

Canada is a nope. The rest certainly indicate a path to success in future pandemics, but I already knew from the computer game and Madagascar that the trick is being an island. I just don't know how California is supposed to become one. Been waiting for that earthquake business my whole life.

 

[Hrothbern]

Canada is a nope. The rest certainly indicate a path to success in future pandemics, but I already knew from the computer game and Madagascar that the trick is being an island. I just don't know how California is supposed to become one. Been waiting for that earthquake business my whole life.

And you guys are being accused of the Californiacation of the US
(I mean with rules, regulation, standards, Green, bigger state, etc... not that other one)

You really have to make up your mind

 

[innonimatu]

The problem with the WHO is how much it buys into China's narrative. The repeated praises of China were also gratuitous and especially suspicious. This raises the question of how much leverage China has over the WHO. And WHO's ignoring of Taiwan doesn't help, although that could be a more general UN problem.

To be fair if they had not praised China so much then the european governments would have resisted going into lockdown for even longer than they did, which was too long already. @Arwon is right that most countries around the world, if they go looking for some other to shake blame into, can blame Europe for letting it spread! This is a very unproductive game and those responsible for protecting a country are the people on the government of that country, not the ones in foreign governments. On each county's government alone rested the responsibility to close its own borders.

 

[Kaitzilla]

China again appears not to give crap about the rest of the world.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/amid-c...eaks-for-exports-11586683800?mod=hp_lead_pos5

Chinese authorities have shut down domestic wild animal traders on fears their goods sparked the coronavirus pandemic.
Now officials are offering tax incentives to the multibillion-dollar animal-products industry to ship some of the creatures overseas, according to Chinese government documents.

SARS started in China in November 2002.
Covid-19 started in China in (roughly) November 2019.

They could try a little harder to stop the next horrifying respiratory virus by closing the wet markets!
Or at least regulate them more.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

And you guys are being accused of the Californiacation of the US

We're doing our best.

 

[r16]

china is the enemy of the West Obama had alot of lies on how China was the biggest threat , Obama let loose the heart eaters to concentrate on China . Everybody could see it coming , with fingers crossed that it would end somehow and stuff . No Western Goverment has any right to blame China , they should have been man enough to take action .

 

[H4run]

China again appears not to give crap about the rest of the world.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/amid-c...eaks-for-exports-11586683800?mod=hp_lead_pos5

SARS started in China in November 2002.
Covid-19 started in China in (roughly) November 2019.

They could try a little harder to stop the next horrifying respiratory virus by closing the wet markets!
Or at least regulate them more.

The Wet Market was the exact same place where they traced Sars in 2003, they directly shut-down the market and ban wild life farming. However few months later they removed the wild life farming ban and revived the market.

Now the same story been retold with Covid, we traced back the virus and it pointed back to the Wet Market, CPC acknowledge the source of the problem and closed it, and now what? They revived it once again. Why is it so important?

The Wet Market's contribution to Chinese GDP actually also very insignificant, HOWEVER the commodity are enjoyed not by the majority of the Chinese citizen, but by the small group of minority of the powerful, the one calling the shot, so they hold a very strong lobby over the CPC.

Why is it so important for them? Those minority use the commodities for health product, tonic, life enhancer, sex enhancer and many other remedies that they believe able to upgrade the quality of their luxurious life. By re-opening the damn market again they are not only don't give a crap about the international world, forget about international world, they don't give a crap about the massive majority of their own people.

But the question is, should we crucifies Trump and other incompetent leader to atones the sin of the great CPC? If not they should carries their own burden.

 

[Kaitzilla]

The Wet Market was the exact same place where they traced Sars in 2003, they directly shut-down the market and ban wild life farming. However few months later they removed the wild life farming ban and revived the market.

Now the same story been retold with Covid, we traced back the virus and it pointed back to the Wet Market, CCP acknowledge the source of the problem and closed it, and now what? They revived it once again. Why is it so important?

The Wet Market's contribution to Chinese GDP actually also very insignificant, HOWEVER the commodity are enjoyed not by the majority of the Chinese citizen, but by the small group of minority of the powerful, the one calling the shot, so they hold a very strong lobby over the CCP.

Why is it so important for them? Those minority use the commodities for health product, tonic, life enhancer, sex enhancer and many other remedies that they believe able to upgrade the quality of their luxurious life. By re-opening the damn market again they are not only don't give a crap about the international world, forget about international world, they don't give a crap about the massive majority of their own people.

But the question is, should we crucifies Trump and other incompetent leader to atones the sin of the great CCP? If not they should carries their own burden.

The U.S. should put most of our spies in China's wet markets for a months-early heads up on the next world-ending pandemic.
They could pretend to be doctors and check up on temperatures and stuff.

The world sat up and took notice of this virus big time in mid-March when we all saw the horrifying videos from Italy.
China could have released some horrifying news footage from Wuhan in mid-February to shock the world into action, but they don't have any free press.
They arrested any such efforts!
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/14/business/wuhan-coronavirus-journalists.html

Again, China did a lot to make the world act 1 month too late!

 

[H4run]

The U.S. should put most of our spies in China's wet markets for a months-early heads up on the next world ending pandemic.
They could pretend to be doctors and check up on temperatures and stuff.

The world sat up and took notice of this virus big time in mid-March when we all saw the horrifying videos from Italy.
China could have released some horrifying news footage from Wuhan in mid-February to shock the world into action, but they don't have any free press.
They arrested any such efforts!
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/14/business/wuhan-coronavirus-journalists.html

Again, China did a lot to make the world act 1 month too late!

I saw a lot of horrifying footage that leaked from China mostly shared in Twitter by activist. You'll never see such footage circulated in youtube, I try to trace it there to share in family group, but I cannot find one.

 

[Hrothbern]

The wet market is part of the informal economy of China
Especially important in more rural villages and still (for western reference) big towns
Size something 15-20% of total Chinese economy ?
especially important for the poorer people struggling.

How do you stop that ?
with pushing a button ?
Will be disruptive for sure
has to happen for sure
but when and how and in how many steps ?

 

[r16]

ı remember the guy with a face mask like dropping dead on the street and just lying there unattended , could wager it was before the Italian ski season ...