We must be having the Heroic Epic then.Email10 said:I think it's a lot higher than that.. more like 1/10th
You, me, Roland E (Welcome along fellow Swede!), Gozpel, flexo, ...
Congratulations on you brilliant 20K win BTW.
COTM 02: Pregame discussion
- Thread starter ainwood
- Start date
Congratulations on you brilliant 20K win BTW.
SirPleb
Shaken, not stirred.
If you get around to doing an article that would be great. It clearly doesn't win in most cases but seeing that joining the worker does win sometimes is very interesting. In the extreme case we're considering here it isn't even marginal, the gain from joining the worker is substantial.civ_steve said:
I think that actually there's a loss of commerce by doing this because of unhappiness. We can use two warriors to maintain happiness up to size 4. At size 5 the new citizen can work a coastal tile to gain 2g but we'll need to use 1g with the luxury slider to keep him happy, for a net gain of just 1g from that citizen. So, if we don't pop a worker when reaching size 4, in the next 20 turns (while growing to size 5) we gain 40g from citizen#4 working a coastal tile. In we pop a worker at size 4 and rejoin him 10 turns later we get zero new income for 10 turns, then for the next 10 turns get 2g from citizen#4 and 1g from citizen#5, for a total gain of 30g. 10g less than if we didn't produce the worker.klarius said:
Singularity
Infinite Density
Megalou said:
Sounds about right. Though I would like to add a little spice to #1. If you trade it, will you research phil and slingshot MM? Or will you research phil after CoL sling to Republic and wait for the AI to research MM?
I'm not too sure on numbers here, but I think you will see huge differences in games with an early palacejump to core friendlier terrain(though this isn't that important in C3C it's still important) compared to later jumps. So waiting for maps sounds kind of like a drag, but then again. You will boost your empires growth through an early republic, but not trading writing will hinder the AIs speed to MM - and trading it will give them a minute chance to research philosophy before you get it.
Shinatoo
OZ wasn't in Kansas
Couple of things:
1. SE move is a good position for a quick start, stick to building units (boats, workers, settlers, warriors). If there is something great to the NW and you want your capital to be there in the future build a city there, don't join your worker on move 8 and abandon your SE city. Palace will move at no cost to you.
2. Just to sound like a cry baby (forgive me civ steve, I live a very shallow life) but wasn't it I who first suggested that the worker mine, then join the city way back post 153. Not that it was a very original idea, or ground breaking, but heck after going 0 - 10 on all my GOTM i need something to cling too.
1. SE move is a good position for a quick start, stick to building units (boats, workers, settlers, warriors). If there is something great to the NW and you want your capital to be there in the future build a city there, don't join your worker on move 8 and abandon your SE city. Palace will move at no cost to you.
2. Just to sound like a cry baby (forgive me civ steve, I live a very shallow life) but wasn't it I who first suggested that the worker mine, then join the city way back post 153. Not that it was a very original idea, or ground breaking, but heck after going 0 - 10 on all my GOTM i need something to cling too.
bradleyfeanor
King
Shinatoo said:
Ah, yes, you did indeed! Sorry for forgetting, my mind has just been so occupied with guessing what TRIBE WE WILL BE that I forgot.
Hint, hint Ainwood. Nudge, nudge.
SirPleb said:
Hello.
Sorry for the following stupid questions
but i'm new to COTM.Was wondering how does one see the mentioned required beaker amount ?
Are the tech costs that are mentioned on TechCalc 2.01 still correct with the
![[c3c]](/images/smilies/c3c.gif "Civ3 Conquests [c3c]")
1.22 patch ? It shows 213 beakers for Writing, so you need one over that to complete the tech ?
In my test game, Map Making said 37 turns when I sling-shotted to it. But that was on deity. I might try to research Map Making outright, then research Code of Laws, Phoilosophy and sling-shot to Republic. That means, if the tribe is right:Singularity said:
Writing ---> Map Making ---> Code of Laws ---> Philosophy
With Map Making, we would be able to found a few new cities that could help shave off a few turns on Code of Laws and Philosophy. But there may be a cash problem when it comes to upgrading curraghs to galleys (45g). And there may not be any curraghs around. I'll probably decide when I see the number of turns required for Map Making. The AI are likely to research most first tier techs by themselves before they go for writing, unless they make more contacts than ususal. Perhaps we'll even be able to trade Writing at a later stage. Sure enough I'll trade away philosophy instantly if it can give some cash for upgrades.
This thread has been enlightening on several levels 
1st, i'll stop my complaining and sarcastic remarks and accept the 'meaningful peer to peer comparison' arguement for exclusion of the SGL
I really like that the screenshot encouraged detailed discussion of possible strategies and related pros/cons of same. These are all things i can use in my SP games as well.
As for me... I'm moving my settler SE and starting the worker building a road right where he is.
All my future decisions will be made after the worker is done mining the tile and i then move it NW to see what is there just before border expansion. I might want to start a road inland asap if a peninsula.
For the open players: move 1 worker SE, warrior NW, then decide whether to wander or not. Who knows... there might be fish 2SW.
1st, i'll stop my complaining and sarcastic remarks and accept the 'meaningful peer to peer comparison' arguement for exclusion of the SGL
I really like that the screenshot encouraged detailed discussion of possible strategies and related pros/cons of same. These are all things i can use in my SP games as well.
As for me... I'm moving my settler SE and starting the worker building a road right where he is.
All my future decisions will be made after the worker is done mining the tile and i then move it NW to see what is there just before border expansion. I might want to start a road inland asap if a peninsula.
For the open players: move 1 worker SE, warrior NW, then decide whether to wander or not. Who knows... there might be fish 2SW.
Shinatoo said:
You are correct, Shinatoo!
However, I do note some confusion between Worker and Settler activities, and it seems that your rationale to join the worker (increase production rate of Curraghs or Archers) and mine (generate fast Settler to form 2nd city) are different. (I've proposed joining the starting worker in several GOTM's before, but each time a food bonus has shown up which undermines the strategy; with a food bonus I believe you're much better off improving spaces for you soon-to-be citizens to work.) In any case, this may be a reasonable tactic for this starting position.
Singularity
Infinite Density
Megalou said:
I think the huge number of turns availiable to send out suicide/exploring curraghs will give us a nice chance of having a fat purse when we can upgrade our curraghs. My guess is that one major landmass must be within 4 move pr turn reach to get our settler across safely without TGL. If not too much will rest on chance of who wins the RNG and get settler across compared to the unlucy loosers of a galley, warrior and a settler(unescorted is madness since barbs will be running around at this stage in the game). Though there might be gains made by going a riskier route to more promising lands
About AI research on monarch difficulty. It all depends if Ainwood have been gracious with rivers and such around the AI starts. You can make maps where the AI research on emperor rate at monarchy diff., all because of the terrain around their start... And, yes, MM is higher on the priority on the AI's list of 'what to research first', but that doesn't exlclude the odd chance that he will go for philosophy first(I have seen AI's with philosophy and no MM). Though the benefits far outpace the risk. So Writing-MM-CoL-Phil will be my prefered route as well. I will not gamble that the AI can get maps in enough time, I might consider it if one of them seem to be particular strong on research, in that case I will sell/gift writing at first chance and go for CoL - Phil and subsequently get maps for phil or CoL.
SirPleb
Shaken, not stirred.
TechCalc is probably right. The formula for calculation tech cost is detailed in this thread. I calculated 240 (for std map size) * 8 (base cost of Writing) / 9 (monarch level) and rounded up, not worrying about 1 beaker either way. On re-reading the formula it says that one should round down, so 213 is correct.Don Vito said:Was wondering how does one see the mentioned required beaker amount ?
Are the tech costs that are mentioned on TechCalc 2.01 still correct with the
It shows 213 beakers for Writing, so you need one over that to complete the tech ?
Most of the base costs for techs are unchanged in C3C. When you want to be really sure of the exact cost it is probably worthwhile to check the base cost in the editor. I'm not aware of any which have a different cost in the first two eras but there might be some, I haven't checked them all.
Roland Ehnström said:
Of course you can't use statistics this way and you can't really do it for military leaders either, even if the probablility is "better" to get MGL's. I've seen games where players got no leaders at all, doing all the right things and other, where the player got a dozen or more. This is just as unbalancing.
The main irritation is that there is no way to rush wonders anymore, which will leads to even more "take the pyramids-games"
And the Philosophy - Republic slingshot starts to feel just as bad too. We "know" how the AI researches and take advantage of this and the COTM seem to be lot of fun, where 93% of the players use this trick everytime in every game. I for one won't use it again and if I reach Philo befor the AI I will use it for a non-gov tech.
It's as bad as early palace-jump or ship-chaining.
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
Aw Gozpel... I love ship-chaining!gozpel said:
Shinatoo
OZ wasn't in Kansas
Whenever I start looking for credit for an idea I always think of what the Late President Reagan said "There is nothing that you can not accomplish if you don't mind someone else getting the credit". Then I think "what if what Im trying to accomplish is getting the credit" then I fall into Descartes trap.
Which begs the question, "Can Ainwood make a start location so tempting that you dare not leave it; and if you do leave it was it really so tempting that you couldnt leave it?
It really does mean so much to lesser god.
Which begs the question, "Can Ainwood make a start location so tempting that you dare not leave it; and if you do leave it was it really so tempting that you couldnt leave it?
It really does mean so much to lesser god.
RFHolloway
Analyst in the UK
My plan - for what it is worth (i.e. not much)
Worker mines then roads, then moves west and starts roading. Settler moves SE founds the city (need this to be the capital to get the whales) builds Carrack, then settler if the first carrack/worker finds something good (anything better than a five tile island!), another Carrack then the settler if not.
This gives me both whales, plus a carrack by the time that I expand, and doesn't delay the exploitation of any goodies over the hills too much. It gives me an extra turn on all the first builds over scouting, and if it is a 5 tile island I still get 2 connected cities shortly after 3000BC.
If it is a 5 tile island. I will probably join the worker to one of the cities to accelerate commerce. if not I will use it around City 2 to improve the tiles there. Techwise it will be writing then mapmaking, then COL and then Phil, and not trade writing.
As for what conquest players should do with the extra stuff,
Use the warrior to scout w
Keep the tech pace on max(extra gold will balance this out)
If you decide to move your settler SE the mine with both workers on the starting spot. This will enable you to get a carrack out 2 turns quicker than my plan on open. Then you might want to road with one and join the other to your capital. You can then pop a settler quite quickly and still work both whales. Of course if you see lots of good stuff to the west ....
Worker mines then roads, then moves west and starts roading. Settler moves SE founds the city (need this to be the capital to get the whales) builds Carrack, then settler if the first carrack/worker finds something good (anything better than a five tile island!), another Carrack then the settler if not.
This gives me both whales, plus a carrack by the time that I expand, and doesn't delay the exploitation of any goodies over the hills too much. It gives me an extra turn on all the first builds over scouting, and if it is a 5 tile island I still get 2 connected cities shortly after 3000BC.
If it is a 5 tile island. I will probably join the worker to one of the cities to accelerate commerce. if not I will use it around City 2 to improve the tiles there. Techwise it will be writing then mapmaking, then COL and then Phil, and not trade writing.
As for what conquest players should do with the extra stuff,
Use the warrior to scout w
Keep the tech pace on max(extra gold will balance this out)
If you decide to move your settler SE the mine with both workers on the starting spot. This will enable you to get a carrack out 2 turns quicker than my plan on open. Then you might want to road with one and join the other to your capital. You can then pop a settler quite quickly and still work both whales. Of course if you see lots of good stuff to the west ....
SniperDevil
Skipper of Barnegat Bay
thats a nice plan i think i might use that
al_thor
Prince
ainwood said:At least not by accident
ainwood is having too much fun tormenting us now! we are probably on a Standard-size map with research set to Huge!!
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- Oct 5, 2001
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Not this time. Map size is standard, and research and corruption modifiers for map size are as per a standard map.al_thor said:ainwood is having too much fun tormenting us now! we are probably on a Standard-size map with research set to Huge!!
SniperDevil
Skipper of Barnegat Bay
i still have a feeling that u have a trick up your sleeve ainwood
