COTM 13 Pre-game Thread

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

It's the loss of 10 turns of population growth I find murderous. Just recall how often you build a second worker before your first settler.

A second Worker is my usual build if the capital grows in 6 or 5 turns @2spt . And somehow it's not a rare circumstance to either loose a pop-point to disease, or your Worker to a Barb very early (if the next AI is 'nice' enough to pop a hut right next to him ).
Taking away a trait may be too harsh, agreed.
In fact, I don't know what is best. Another Worker/ free units for the AI could either mean game over very soon (imagine Otto starts next to us...), or won't have any noticable effect. A free Settler for the AI is almost Sid. Removing COM is really not feasable; removing IND still ugly.
Removing a starting tech...no Pottery in CotM12 was not a big deal. But, that was Monarch and a cheap tech...
France really has to be played with that starting techs; either to research math for a sure monopoly, or to immediately start a GLib prebuild. If that isn't possible, it's not France...more like a SEA Civ without Curraghs.

 

[Megalou]

A second Worker is my usual build if the capital grows in 6 or 5 turns @2spt .

Interesting, I'll have to try that then. There's time for one warrior first too.

It's a good thing we don't need to decide the handicap anyway.

 

[pindicator]

Interesting indeed on the second worker...

With all the forests we have, it looks like you can even go Warrior -> Worker -> Granary and get the Granary out on turn 18 with 4 chops wasting only 1 shield on the final chop. You can even get a second warrior out three turns later, but this only works if you can trade for pottery before turn 10 -- very unlikely, i know.

Even if this can be pulled off, I'm not so sure it's desireable. Without any bonus food (that we can see) in the radius of a gold-hill Paris, the difference in one population is a little more important. The +1 or +2 Shields and Commerce per turn can add up. Plus you lose out on an extra scout early on.

Actually, the first settler would come out two turns earlier with Warrior -> Warrior -> Granary than Warrior -> Worker -> Granary due to waiting for Paris to hit size three.

Now... does having that extra worker early on outweigh having that extra warrior to scout with and a settler two turns earlier?

 

[MeteorPunch]

I build a worker many times as the first build of cities, but not the capital.

Paris for me will make at least 2 warriors for exploring the terrain, then a settler as soon as I can for a food location.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Now... does having that extra worker early on outweigh having that extra warrior to scout with and a settler two turns earlier?

Hardly. This is not a start were I normally would build a second Worker early. But, starting without the Worker wouldn't be that ugly.

The usual situation I start a Worker before anything else is the standard '1 Grassland Cow at a River with an AGR Civ'.
Here, food isn't that problematic; irrigate the Cow, finish Worker with growth to 2. This delays growth to size 3 for a mere 5 turns...but, at that time you have at least one more tile improved - so, the Granary/Settler will copmplete at about the same time, while you benefit from 2 more roads (which translates to several turns you get a tech faster).

 

[Obormot]

Building worker first might be interesting. I've never tried that before, and i admit that in some situations that may help. I'll do some calculations now each time i start to see if worker first is better that usual settler or granary with some warriors.

 

[Hannabir]

I usually start by building a second worker (or after a warrior, or two).

What you are giving up is time, a number of turns ranging from 5 to 10.

Because of what a Worker does, you will gain these turns back by building faster, by laying a road to the next city location, by improving the next city location, and by connecting luxuries. If you are industrial, the gain of an extra worker is larger, except when your workers are getting so far ahead that you cannot profit from their work, but that is rarely the case.

There are four main reasons NOT to start with building a second worker:
- there are food surpluses nearby for a second city;
- there is very little work to do;
- you want to raid your neighbours asap;
- the AI might claim your land.

So, what is wise depends highly on the circumstances. On average, I find that I have gained back the invested turns around 2550BC. On this map it will take more time, because the capital has no food bonus. And it's deity, so the AI will get to our land sooner.
Therefore, I'm inclined to build Warrior-Granary-Settler first, and take another look then. But I haven't decided yet.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Another good reason to start with a Worker is a Goody Hut you'll pop with culture expansion on turn 10...

 

[DaveMcW]

That's more of a reason NOT to build a warrior.

(Goody huts won't pop barbarians if you have no military.)

(But there are no huts in this game.)

 

[A'AbarachAmadan]

That's more of a reason NOT to build a warrior.

(Goody huts won't pop barbarians if you have no military.)

(But there are no huts in this game.)

And that is exactly why a slingshot is possible. No unlucky GH pops to Philosophy after the AI gets Writing.

 

[Renata]

Conquest/Predator adjustments have been added to the first post. The predator change is a bit unusual. I hope that potential predator players will enjoy the challenge, but feel free to vote with your feet if you don't; I won't be (too) offended.

Renata

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Sounds fine.

Let's go hunting the Pyramids !

 

[Paul#42]

Predators becoming wonder addicted

sounds fun.

capturing pyramides before building lighthouse (always a good choice for Renata's maps?)?

Can't wait to read those spoilers.

 

[King Of America]

Does no barbs = no GHs? I took no barbs to mean "No barbs except for those popped by GHs"

Renata -- if you could say "yes", "no", or "that's for me to know and you to find out ", I'd appreciate it.

 

[Renata]

No goody huts, that's correct. Can't get them unless barbs are set to at least sedentary.

Renata

 

[solenoozerec]

...but feel free to vote with your feet if you don't; I won't be (too) offended.
Renata

I will not play predator. I still haven't win any deity and I do not see any potential advantage of playing predator this time.
But conquest bonuses are awesome, I wish I were eligible.
BTW, this is the first COTM on deity and its number is 13

 

[namliaM]

I will be playing conquest on this one... Only started monarch and havent even finished a Monarch game yet (win or lose)

I will probably be looking for some "Hunting tips"

I will probably move 1 scout NW-W onto the mountain
the other S-S or S-SW

Do scouts use 1 or 2 turns for forest? If 1 then I am tempted to use the 2nd scout E-E.

Greetz,

See you all in the AA.

 

[Megalou]

The scouts waste 2 movement points landing on unroaded forest (or roaded forest entered from a road going across a river.)

 

[socralynnek]

As thsi game seems very hard, I want to play Conquest Class, but I guess I was in Top 50% once.
May we relax this criteria for Deity games, s.t. more players can play Conquest class?
(I guess ainwood could best answer this.)

 

[Hannabir]

I oculd be less hard than it looks. The AI might have ugly terrain.