[RD] Could our posts here endanger us in the far future?

Internet or no internet, people are going to be people and totalitarian regimes are going to work to be evil and totalitariany. The question is one of efficiency, and I doubt there’s really any threat of a government in the Western world capable of being both totalitarians and efficient at it.

It's not even that efficient. It's easier to get data, but algotithms still aren't good enough to seperate the relevant from the nonsense. You still need thousands of people to sift through a deluge of irrelevant information snippets.
 
It's not even that efficient. It's easier to get data, but algotithms still aren't good enough to seperate the relevant from the nonsense. You still need thousands of people to sift through a deluge of irrelevant information snippets.
I wouldn’t worry about it. Totalitarian regimes are well known for their meticulous attention to correctly identifying threats to its power and protecting the innocent.
 
One of the real dangers I see is that the State sees no longer a benefit in your existence as biological human being... and just erases your electronic records, your electronic ID... at which moment almost all your rights disappear.

It is kind of the opposite of the headline of this thread, but has the same basic root:
How is the relation between the State and the Citizen ?

Has a Citizen rights to protect from anybody and any body more powerful incl the State, even when a Citizen delivers no net gain to the State, as defined by the State.
 
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One of the real dangers I see is that the State sees no longer a benefit in your existence as biological human being... and just erases your electronic records, your electronic ID... at which moment almost all your rights disappear.
Welcome to the Republic of Gilead. That's how they enslaved the women before forcing the fertile ones to become Handmaids and the property of whatever Commander they were assigned to bear children for.
 
Welcome to the Republic of Gilead. That's how they enslaved the women before forcing the fertile ones to become Handmaids and the property of whatever Commander they were assigned to bear children for.

I did not see the movie... in such a society I guess there is hardly any need for males (except for police and army... and when tech is at low level the male muscle for hard labor)
Is that reflected in the movie ?
 
One of the real dangers I see is that the State sees no longer a benefit in your existence as biological human being... and just erases your electronic records, your electronic ID... at which moment almost all your rights disappear.

It is kind of the opposite of the headline of this thread, but has the same basic root:
How is the relation between the State and the Citizen ?

Has a Citizen rights to protect from anybody and any body more powerful incl the State, even when a Citizen delivers no net gain to the State, as defined by the State.

Peoples should have a bargaining, tools and power to protect themselves toward their government, in US the citizen have the right to arm themselves come as solution, but I think it is just too shallow and childish, somehow unrelated also, there should be other mean on how we can have our bargaining or tools to protect our right against state and its apparatus, or to talk in equal terms. Because the relation between the state and its citizen is no better than the relation between the weak and their over-lord, now with the transparency of all of our activity from the eyes of the big brother this makes us no better than a cattle in an animal farm. Remind me of the song that sung by Joan Baez:

Calves are easily bound and slaughtered
Never knowing the reason why
But whoever treasures freedom
Like the swallow has learned to fly
 
Peoples should have a bargaining, tools and power to protect themselves toward their government, in US the citizen have the right to arm themselves come as solution, but I think it is just too shallow and childish, somehow unrelated also, there should be other mean on how we can have our bargaining or tools to protect our right against state and its apparatus, or to talk in equal terms. Because the relation between the state and its citizen is no better than the relation between the weak and their over-lord, now with the transparency of all of our activity from the eyes of the big brother this makes us no better than a cattle in an animal farm. Remind me of the song that sung by Joan Baez:

Calves are easily bound and slaughtered
Never knowing the reason why
But whoever treasures freedom
Like the swallow has learned to fly


yes

The Time Machine of HG Wells made a lasting impression on me.
Did read when 14 or so for my English lessons, the literature list (incl the inevitable starters Oliver Twist, Animal Farm that read all easy when learning English)
That lasting impression not from that machine, the time travelling etc and not as such the way Wells spinned the story out... but the basic concept for me that we ended up in two kinds of humans utilising each other and you can from that concept think out various ways who are those two kinds.
The first one (for me ofc :sad:) that the Eloi were the former nobility, but having become so decadent and distracted from realities in their social stuff, taking the Morlock as workers for granted, that they ended up as usefull idiots you can consume. But the Morlocks, a kind of homo economicus without the joy of the Sun and Nature, end up as the gears in the Big Corporate machinery.
But there are more ways to allocate with that basic concept that people are not one wholesome society but are splitted up in groups with their own interests, culture, power profile etc etc.

And yes again to your post
What is our bargaining power ?... or more general: what kind of bargaining powers can we have between segments and aspects in our society that support respect, dignity as humans ?

I remember that during one of the Plagues in England, and workers demanding better pay because of changed balances between supply and demand... many nobility landowners decided it was better to replace peasants with sheep.
 
I remember that during one of the Plagues in England, and workers demanding better pay because of changed balances between supply and demand... many nobility landowners decided it was better to replace peasants with sheep.

People can call me over-reacting, or over-generalizing, or what-not, but I agree completely with your post, and especially with how you concluded the post, it's an epic conclusion. We are not less a tool than a sheep, just look from the concentration camp and possible organ farming in China, then the genocide in Rohingnya, India, Serbia, Rwanda, and even now on how the elites able to risk the lives of their own citizen to be feed to the Pandemic just for the sake of keeping the state-revenue from trade and tourism flowing in, it's pretty evidence to me that your conclusion it is explicitly valid till now.

The transparency of information and data will not be used for our browsing convenient, but it will be use as a control tools. And as long as we don't have an equal bargaining between the state and its people, until you climb over the top of the pyramid, we are nothing more than part of a number, while the nail that stick out will be hammered down, and the nail that got hammered down will be reduced to numbers: "a hundred nail get hammered down today".
 
I’ll shift gears and give you something else anecdotal you’ll hate: the people that design and operate these systems. They’re geeks.

Ah, I see, your worldview still rests on the ole Jock/Nerd dichotomy. Of course all the people working in high positions for tech firms are nerds, how could anyone feel threatened by them? That's just silly! Just give them a wedgie and watch 'em squirm.

Sorry, but your post doesn't really elicit a proper reply from me. Everything you mention I've already gone through in my posts on site 2.
 
That's just silly! Just give them a wedgie and watch 'em squirm.

I have 33,000 posts here and an anime avatar. Rather unusual to suspect I’d be the one dispensing the wedgies.

:lol: This is just funny, but yea by stamping them as a nerd so they are out of hook and harmless is not really an argument, Hillary is quite a scary nerd actually, I see her as a kind of Don in mafia world.
 
I did not see the movie... in such a society I guess there is hardly any need for males (except for police and army... and when tech is at low level the male muscle for hard labor)
Is that reflected in the movie ?
I'm referring to The Handmaid's Tale, a novel by Canadian author Margaret Atwood. While it has been adapted into a movie (1990, starring Natasha Richardson, Robert Duvall, and Faye Dunaway), an opera (haven't seen it), and a TV series (starring Elisabeth Moss) that is going into its 4th season (or would have, if filming hadn't been interrupted by the coronavirus situation), it's the original novel that was published in 1985 that people reference when speaking of the Republic of Gilead.

The basic premise of the novel is that in a near future, there's a population crisis - not as many children are being born, and of the ones that are, a significant number are not born viable or healthy. A right-wing group called the Sons of Jacob decides they know the answer - bring religion back and live according to some carefully cherry-picked portions of the Old Testament. They start by murdering the U.S. president and Congress, and when the dust clears (mostly) from the civil war in the northeastern region of the U.S., the Sons of Jacob have won.

By this point the U.S. had become a cashless society. Everyone had a "CompuCard" they presented when they wanted to pay for something (this novel was written before the internet era started in earnest, and my own recollections of the time are that even debit cards were a fairly new thing). What I was referring to in my previous post is that because the Sons of Jacob wanted to round up the women to serve the elite class (the non-fertile ones would either be sentenced to clean up toxic waste or become domestic servants and the fertile ones would be put to work bearing children to the elite), they had to take away their ability to just get on a plane, bus, or boat to escape or buy tools, weapons, food, or other things that could help them escape.

So no, this is not a society where men aren't needed. They consider the infertile women to be disposable, and the only reason the Handmaids get even a little bit of consideration is because they are the few women who can still bear children. The 'consideration' they get is somewhat better food and they're allowed outside for a daily walk. And that's it. They aren't allowed to keep their original names, but are merely known as "Of(first name of their current Commander)". So the main character's name is Offred (her Commander's name is Fred). The novel never tells us her original name.

As to how these women were rounded up in the first place... everyone's CompuCard lists the owner's sex. It was easy-peasy to simply freeze the accounts of everyone with an F beside their name. The money was reassigned to the women's husbands or nearest male relatives, at least until they started rounding the women up (and killing any of the men who refused to cooperate). Any children were simply taken and placed into re-education facilities and indoctrinated before being adopted out to childless people loyal to the Sons of Jacob.

So it's a dystopian novel that wouldn't take much to make it real. Margaret Atwood used RL examples for everything in the novel - if it was going on currently or had at some time in the past, it was valid to use in the novel. Critics and detractors of the TV series have screeched on social media that the villainous Sons of Jacob are modeled on Donald Trump and his people, but Trump hadn't even won the nomination when this show's first season was being shot. The fact is that Atwood based Gilead on the Puritans (mostly; she took inspiration from other regimes as well).

The book is meant to serve as a warning of where society could go if we're not careful. Unfortunately, it also serves as a how-to manual to pull it off.
 
Guys this is interesting, Edward Snowden says COVID-19 could give governments invasive new data-collection powers that could last long after the pandemic. And here is some interesting facts from the article:

Israel granted its spy services emergency powers to hack citizens’ phones without a warrant. South Korea has been sending text alerts to warn people when they may have been in contact with a coronavirus patient, including personal details like age and gender. Singapore is using a smartphone app to monitor the spread of the coronavirus by tracking people who may have been exposed.

In Poland, citizens under quarantine have to download a government app that mandates they respond to periodic requests for selfies. Taiwan has introduced an “electronic fence” system that alerts the police if quarantined patients move outside their homes.

Taking a long term benefit during the calamity, very logical, they give one takes two.
 
People are lazy, mortal, disagreement prone, etc. And surveillance systems are complex and high-maintenance. There won't be any tech surveillance state, at least none that can endure.

Power is maintained more by social custom, repetition and fear of deviating into the unknown than by surveillance and repression. Repression is costly and depends on the work of a large number of people doing the repressing. It's inefficient. Foucault didn't discover anything new except to himself and the young people who at the time followed him.
 
So every single person in Poland owns a cell phone? If they don't, will the government provide one, free of charge, and teach those who don't know how to use them?

Yeah this is quite weird actually, I believe majority of the population use smart-phone but I think it is even less than say 75 percent of the population. From this kind of decree you can make a conclusion regarding the government, however Valka, well spotted, Maddy will be proud ;)
 
Yeah this is quite weird actually, I believe majority of the population use smart-phone but I think it is even less than say 75 percent of the population. From this kind of decree you can make a conclusion regarding the government, however Valka, well spotted, Maddy will be proud ;)
My cat thinks I'm only as smart as my ability to understand when she wants food, water, cuddles, scratches, litter box cleaning, and when bedtime is (she likes to sleep with me and will sometimes pace around and glance over at the bed, like "I'm tired, so it's time for you to go to bed."). Bonus points for finding the right time to clip her claws and reassure her when a particularly loud or violent storm is going on (wind storms scare her).

Trudeau has been resisting invoking the Emergencies Act for weeks now, preferring to rely on Canadians' cooperation. But he was visibly angry when a crowd of people started frolicking on the beach in Vancouver, in outright defiance of staying home and social distancing. Two people have been arrested for breaking isolation orders, and there's been talk of monitoring people by calling them at random times on their phones, and using the phones' location to determine if the people are home or not (leaving the phones at home won't work, since they're required to talk to whoever is checking on them).

This still brings up the question of how they plan to check on people and locate them without cell/smart phones. I don't own one, and don't even know how to use one (yes, seriously; I grew up in an era when rural areas had party lines and the phones were heavy, clunky things with rotary dials and you had no way of knowing who was calling until you answered - actually I still don't, because my landline doesn't have either an answering machine or caller ID).
 
My cat thinks I'm only as smart as my ability to understand when she wants food, water, cuddles, scratches, litter box cleaning, and when bedtime is (she likes to sleep with me and will sometimes pace around and glance over at the bed, like "I'm tired, so it's time for you to go to bed."). Bonus points for finding the right time to clip her claws and reassure her when a particularly loud or violent storm is going on (wind storms scare her).

We have a husky who gets absolutely embittered on weekend nights when we don't go to bed at the designated normal time.
 
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