CTIV-7: King George the First

Conroe said:
Speaking of which, Philly is 2 turns shy of completing its Obelisk. I don't believe the game will allow us to complete it now that it is obsolete. The city's build queue should probably be changed before anymore hammers go into that Obelisk.

Whoops. Thanks for the heads up.

Turn 108 (175 BC)
Philadelphia begins: Lighthouse
Philadelphia begins: Library
Methos: Switch Philly to a library. It'll cost two population to whip so it'll be ten more turns until it’s possible.
New York begins: Settler
Methos: NY doesn't have any hammers invested in the axemen so I switch her to a settler.
Washington begins: Galley
Washington begins: Work Boat
Methos: Move the archer south to watch the straits.
Research begun: Meditation
Research begun: Priesthood
Research begun: Monarchy
Methos: So far Izzy and Cyrus are the only ones who don't have Math. We need two techs before we can even start on Monarchy. So I decide to help push us forward.
Methos: Traded Math to Izzy for Meditation and Masonry.
Tech learned: Meditation
Tech learned: Masonry
Tech learned: Priesthood

Turn 109 (150 BC)

Turn 110 (125 BC)
Methos: Mao asks for Open Borders and I agree to them. After the fact I realized I shouldn't have. We currently have two more settlers being built so probably shouldn't have to worry.
Methos: Mao just converted to Confucianism, meaning he now knows Code of Laws.

  • Boston will finish its settler next turn.
  • NY will finish its settler in six turns.
  • We need more workers so might want to build one in Boston after the settler is finished. It’ll only take five turns to complete the worker.
  • We’re currently four units over our free cost amount. We’re also earning a -2 gold cost as a handicap for the units. I don’t have a clue what that means. I suggest maybe holding off on more units until we build our economy up more.

Roster:
ChrTh
Bede
Methos- Just Played
Scowler- Up
Maquis- On Deck
Conroe
 
Got it. Will probably play tomorrow.
 
Turn 0 (125 BC)
DC is switched from a work boat to a galley so that one of the settlers can be ferried over to the corn island. The wine resource there is worked to bring the build time from 17 to 13 turns.
Everything else looks fine so I hit "turn".

IBT:
Confucianism has spread: New York
Boston finishes: Settler

Turn 1 (100 BC)
Izzy wants OB with us, but it doesn't seem like a good idea to give her settlers access to our land.

Next comes Mao, who demands Alphabet. This is a more difficult decision. Methos refused the same demand from Khan, but that was five or six turns ago and I don't think we can realistically hold on to our monopoly for much longer. Also, this game is supposed to be about playing the diplomatic game and I don't particularly want to antagonize the currently most powerful civ - who also happens to be our nearest neighbour. Finally, since becoming Confused Mao may be less willing to trade with the other civs, except...

I give Alphabet to Mao. We gain +2 from "fair and forthright" trading and +1 for helping; our relations improve to Pleased. Since our monopoly is now broken I next dial up Monty, who is Mao's best buddy and therefore the person that he is most likely to trade with, and ask him what he is prepared to give us for Alphabet. His response:

civilization420060315203909433.jpg


This suits me because the extra money will allow us to run deficit research a little longer after our settler expansion starts pushing up the maintenance costs. The next few turns should reveal whether I've made the right choice or a terrible mistake. The only potential cloud on the horizon so far is that it turns out that Monty is Cyrus's worst enemy and we get -1 from Persia. I had completely forgotten that the Aztecs and the Persians are at war...

Meanwhile, Confusion has spread in New York. Converting would improve relations with Mao still further, but I don't think we should go down this route just yet - at least not until we have a better idea of what blocs are developing.

The new settler is sent off to the east so that it can later board the galley to corn island.

Boston begins: Worker

IBT:
Washington grows: 6

Turn 2 (75 BC)
As far as I can see the trading situation has not changed. Alphabet doesn't appear to have spread any further, but we are unable to trade it any further ourselves: every option is now redded out with "We don't want to start trading away this technology just yet". Weird.

Our scout catches a glimpse of brown borders: Mali?

civilization420060315204634019.jpg


Turn 3 (50 BC)

civilization420060315205357640.jpg


It is indeed Mansa Musa. He is Buddhist and well-liked by Cyrus, but unfortunately he is also Mao's worst enemy. In fact, we already have a -4 for trading, which seems a bit unfair. He only has Monotheism so I don't bother trading him Alphabet. He is also in last place (apart from us, of course).

Atlanta is founded as planned, north of the iron.

civilization420060315205627144.jpg


Atlanta begins: Lighthouse

IBT:
Christianity founded in a distant land
Taoism founded in a distant land

Turn 4 (25 BC)
Taoism has been founded in Shanghai; I've no idea who got Christianity.

Mao is sending a settler group via galley but we can't close borders against him for another 6 turns!

civilization420060315210340819.jpg


Our own galley in DC can now be whipped with just 1 pop. so I do this. Can't risk Mao getting to that island before we do!

And the trading situation is STILL stagnant. Remarkable.

IBT:
Washington finishes: Galley

Turn 5 (0 AD)
The galley is launched, with Mao's following all too closely behind.

IBT:
New York finishes: Settler
Boston finishes: Worker

Turn 6 (25 AD)
Settler at New York is now ready so I send him up towards the wine location just east of DC. I'm worried that if I close borders against Mao his ship will become trapped between the borders of DC and Atlanta and he might be tempted to unload his settler in that gap and plant a city there. If we can get our settler there in time we should be able to prevent this.

New York begins: Axeman
Boston begins: Axeman

IBT:
Washington finishes: Work Boat

Turn 7 (50 AD)
:coffee:

Still no trading possible.

Washington begins: Library

IBT:
Tech learned: Monarchy
Philadelphia grows: 3

Turn 8 (75 AD)
Research begun: Code of Laws. As we are spamming settlers it makes sense to have courthouses on hand, and CoL should be good for trading (assuming this bunch are willing to get off their backsides and actually DO some trading - everything is still redded out)
New York finishes: Axeman

Turn 9 (100 AD)
Now that New York's axe is finished I revolt to Hereditary Rule. No more happiness limit for us!

Mao's galley has suddenly decided to turn back! I don't know why it should do this, but I'm not complaining.

New York begins: Settler

Turn 10 (125 AD)
We are now able to cancel OB with Mao whenever we want. However, since his galley is heading back west there is no longer any pressing reason to do so. I suggest keeping things as they are and simply watching out for any more settlers looking for free passage through our territory.

We have a settler in place and ready to found a city in the forest north of the wine. It would have been nice to be able to chop that forest before settling but there were no workers that could be spared. The other settler is currently waiting on the east coast for the galley to reach it - as is the archer that should accompany him to the corn island:

civilization420060315214150092.jpg


As you can see, there is a fish available as well as the corn:

civilization420060315214207153.jpg


- Philly hasn't yet been able to chop its library due to slow growth. I've added a cottage there, but perhaps I should have built a farm first instead.
- Another settler will soon be ready at NY. He should also be sent east: depending on what appears under the fog, he could also be sent across to the corn island or nearby.
- Work boat is heading for the clams north of Atlanta.
- An axeman is on his way from New York to bolster the garrison at Philly.
- Mansa Musa is willing to make the following trade:

civilization420060315214555143.jpg


However, you should remember that Mansa and Mao are each other's worst enemies and Mao is our best friend.

Also:
Khan and Izzy are worst enemies
Cyrus and Monty are worst enemies (and still at war)

The save
 
This is the current trading situation. In every case, technologies in red give the reason "We don't want to start trading away this technology just yet". It's been the same all throughout my round. I just don't know what to make of it.

civilization420060315214434703.jpg


civilization420060315214450018.jpg


civilization420060315214502377.jpg


civilization420060315214511072.jpg


civilization420060315214519482.jpg


civilization420060315214533823.jpg


Other information:

civilization420060315214815689.jpg


civilization420060315214817841.jpg
 
Roster:
ChrTh
Bede
Methos
Scowler > Just Played
Maquis > UP
Conroe > On Deck

As for why they don't want to trade yet ... I'm guessing the AI doesn't like to trade monopoly/almost monopoly techs?
 
Scowler said:
This is the current trading situation. In every case, technologies in red give the reason "We don't want to start trading away this technology just yet". It's been the same all throughout my round. I just don't know what to make of it.

lurker's comment: This often shows up with monopoly techs and unbuilt wonder techs. From the AI standpoint the monopoly is based on civs he knows, so 2 civs can refuse to trade away a "monopoly".
 
I looked at the save, I don't think there are any "Worst Enemies" out there right now except for Mao and Mansa.
 
Trust me; there are! I put that list together from the number of times I saw the messages "we urge you to stop trading with..." and "beware of ... they can't be trusted" when I dialed somebody up. And it's probably only a matter of time before Cyrus or Monty asks us to join in their war...
 
Scowler said:
Trust me; there are! I put that list together from the number of times I saw the message "we urge you to stop trading with..." when I dialed somebody up. And it's probably only a matter of time before Cyrus or Monty asks us to join in their war...

Whoops, missed that last note. :blush:

Hrm, well at least the 'worst enemies' are paired up nicely.
 
I got it. I'll be playing tonight.

As for deplomacy, I understand that we want to stay as friendly as possible with Mao.

Looks like Monty is tops in power, but I doubt we could count on staying friendly w/ him? Better to try to get on Cyrus' good side?

Same goes for Izzy... since she's Jewish, we'd have to piss off a lot of others if we suck up to her...

Anyways, looks like the settler on corn isle should go 1 SW, looks like a desert tile? It'll take a border pop, but will get both fish & corn...
 
Turns done. I worked on settling corn isle, and found a couple surprises...

Spoiler :

Turn 120 (125 AD)
Washington grows: 6
Boston grows: 4

Turn 121 (150 AD)
Chicago founded
Chicago begins: Lighthouse
Chicago begins: Library
Boston finishes: Axeman

Turn 122 (175 AD)
Boston begins: Granary
Christianity has spread: Philadelphia

Turn 123 (200 AD)

Turn 124 (225 AD)
Atlanta grows: 2

Turn 125 (250 AD)

Turn 126 (275 AD)
Seattle founded
Seattle begins: Library
New York finishes: Settler

Turn 127 (300 AD)
New York begins: Worker
Tech learned: Code of Laws
Boston grows: 5

Turn 128 (325 AD)
Research begun: Metal Casting
Atlanta finishes: Lighthouse

Turn 129 (350 AD)
Atlanta begins: Library
Washington finishes: Library
Boston finishes: Granary

Turn 130 (375 AD)
Washington begins: Lighthouse
Boston begins: Courthouse



Turn 2: Christianity spreads to Phily. St least now it can get some culture to get the border expansion, since it has no production...

Turn 5: The settler/archer pair hit corn isle... and I find a few surprises. It's big enough to hold a couple cities! Red dot, where I am going to settle, can get fish and corn. Blue dot can have fish and horses.

cornisle3oy.jpg


Turn 6: Seattle founded on the isle. ordered up a library for the culture.

Turn 9: Ok, hopefully I didn't :smoke:, but the isle has another surprise... we have some barb friends! I have sent the galley back tot the mainland, to pick up a couple of axes... next player can check out the barb city, not sure if it would be worth keeping...

civ4screenshot00046ne.jpg


On the trading front, the option to get Currency is there from Mansa. I didn't take it, I wasn't sure if it would be worth the diplo hit. I couldn't find any other trades that were open (at least none that were not lopsided...)

We'll have to turn down science in the next turn or two. If we can get the trade for currency done, the sooner the better.

Here's the save:
 
Got it! I doubt that I will get it played today.

I've been reading over the last several reports and I'm not sure that I understand the diplomatic landscape in this game. Scowler has posted a lot of good information, as well as all of those screenshots. And, the consensus seems to be that we want to remain good friends with Mao. But, if the UN were to have been built this turn, wouldn't Mao be our opponent? Isn't he the biggest civ? If that is the case, then there is no way he would ever vote for us. Or is Monty the biggest civ? I'm rather unclear on this point, myself. The fact remains, though, that we want our best friend to be the second biggest civ, not the biggest.

Of course, the construction of the UN is still aways away and the landscape can change significantly by that time. However, it seems to me that we should be looking to convert to Buddhism since Monty, Khan, Cyrus, and Mansa are all Buddhist at the moment. Ahhh, but Cyrus and Monty hate each other! It would be nice to stay out of that conflict, but that would seriously limit our trading opportunities. And then Khan is mad at us for not giving in to his demands, while Mansa hates us for trading with his worst enemy, Mao.

That just leaves Isabella and I think we can all agree that we won't be taking her to the dance.
 
I was really hoping to get some feedback on my query before playing my turns. The diplomacy side of the game is definitely a weakness of mine. However, since our military is so weak (pathetic actually), it probably behooves us to not irritate any civ.

Here is how our demographics look at this point. We are dead last in soldiers and population, and significantly below the average. In land area, we are tied for last. We are also trailing in GNP output.

CTIV-7_375AD_Demo.JPG


Needless to say, but we have got to improve these numbers if we are going to have a chance in this game. We have got to start churning out cottages to get our commerce up enough to compete in the tech race. And, if we don't start building troops, we are going to lose what little land that we have.

On the land front, it looks like we should be able to claim the corn island for ourselves. And it looks like it may be big enough to hold at least three cities, albeit cramped. I think we will need at least one more Settler to be trained. Hopefully, we have enough troops already trained to capture the barb city on the corn island.

If we can get the free Great Artist that comes with researching Music, I think we would have a good shot at flipping the former barb city of Scythian. The city has a religion that has spread to it, but it does not have a border expansion, yet. A culture bomb in Philadelphia would most likely flip the city.

CTIV-7_375AD_FlipPlan.JPG


It will be a big risk, though. In order to research Music, we will need either Literature or Drama. Mao already has Literature and is unwilling to trade it. He may already have Music or be researching it currently. Since he is the GNP leader, we will not get the free Artist if he is researching it. It will take us 5 turns to research Literature and find out if Mao already has Music or not.

Turn 0 - 375AD: We currently have 15 gold in the bank and are spending it at -13gpt with 80% on the research slider. I dial the slider down to 70%, but we are still spending at -7gpt. Since Montezuma is the only civ that is pleased with us, I dial him up and ask for a free handout of 50 gold (all he has). He was very happy to give it to us. With 65 gold, we can stay at 70% research for 9 turns (or at least until we found a new city).

I change our research from Metal Casting to Literature.

Washington has a Lighthouse in the build queue with no hammers invested. I change it to a Spearman. Boston has a Courthouse in the build queue, also with no hammers, that I change to an Axeman. While Lighthouses and Courthouses are certainly necessary builds, we need more troops at the moment. Of our 7 cities, only Washington, Boston, and New York are productive at the moment.

I :whipped: the Library in Philadelphia at the cost of 1 population.

IBT: Mansa Musa completes the Parthenon.

Turn 1 - 400AD: New York completes a Worker and begins another Settler. Philadelphia completes its Library and begins a Granary.

I :whipped: the Spearman in Washington and the Axeman in Boston at a cost of 1 population each.

Turn 2 - 425AD: Washington completes the Spearman and starts another one. Boston completes the Axeman and starts another one. Meanwhile, we get a border expansion in Philadelphia.

Turn 3 - 450AD:

IBT: Mao's Settler galley is sailing around our coast. Mao is now aware that the city of Chicago has no troops to defend it.

Turn 4 - 475AD: Evidently Mao had the same idea that I had. A culture bomb has just gone off in Scythian. Philadelphia is now 18% American and has a 6.5% chance of revolt. I think it is safe to say that we are going to lose this city.

CTIV-7_475AD_CultureBomb.JPG


We only have 1 turn left on Literature. I'm going to leave it alone, but I am pretty sure that Mao has already discovered Music.

Turn 5 - 500AD: Literature is complete. And as I expected, Mao has already discovered Music. I resume our research on Metal Casting.

An Axeman is trained in Boston and another one is started. I :whipped: the Library builds in Chicago and Atlanta.

I cancel open borders with Mao. His Settler galley is now trapped between the unexpanded borders of Chicago and Atlanta. Unfortunately, our Scout is also trapped on the far side of the continent.

IBT: On the corn island, our Axeman is attacked by a barb Archer. After a Cover promotion, our axe will need 2 turns to heal.

Turn 6 - 520AD: Washington completes a Spearman and begins training an Axeman. Atlanta completes its Library and starts a Granary.

IBT: The war horns sound. After changing my underwear, it appears that Montezuma has declared war on Mao.

Turn 7 - 540AD: New York completes its Settler and begins a Swordsman.

San Francisco is founded due south of Atlanta, just east of the stone tile. It immediately begins work on a Granary.

CTIV-7_540AD_SanFran.JPG


The city maintenance costs are starting to add up now. Along with the costs for troop support. I am forced to lower the research slider to 50%.

The situation in Philadelphia is showing some improvement. I decide to preempt the Granary build for a Christian Monastery (+2cpt). It should probably be whipped at some point.

CTIV-7_540AD_Philly.JPG


While cropping the above picture, I notice that I apparently clicked on the wrong building! I seem to have selected a Temple rather than a Monastery. :gripe:

IBT: Monty asks us to join the war with him and Mao. I decline, but he is still pleased with us.

Turn 8 - 560AD: Boston completes an Axeman and starts another one.

Turn 9 - 580AD: New York completes a Swordsman and starts an Axeman. Boston completes an Axeman and starts another one.

We also get a border expansion in Atlanta. This pushes Mao's Settler Galley further east. He still cannot reach the corn island, though, because of San Francisco.

Turn 10 - 600AD: A Chinese revolt begins in Philadelphia. The city is up to 30% American, now. Curiously, it has also caused a big hit to the finances. We are now spending at -7gpt with no money in the bank. The next person will need to drop the research slider.

After 10 turns, here is what our empire looks like:

CTIV-7_600AD_OurEmpire.JPG


Here is what the demographics look like after my turns:

CTIV-7_600AD_Demo.JPG


I built a ton of troops during my set, but you wouldn't know it by looking at the demographics. Our last place ranking in GNP happened after the Philly revolt. The turn before showed we had dropped to 6th place (from 5th), but now we are in last place. Before the revolt, we were in 3rd place, IIRC, in land area.

The power graph is rather interesting. Monty and Cyrus have definitely been building troops during my turns.

CTIV-7_600AD_Power.JPG


As for corn island, there is a Settler in a Galley that can be offloaded next turn. Refer to Maquis' dot map for the placement. There are also two (count 'em 2) barb cities on the island. We have 3 Axemen and 2 Archers. The Archers will be needed for our cities, though. We also have a lone Swordsman enroute to Boston. It will be 3 or 4 turns before he can be put onto a Galley, though.

I managed to build quite a few cottages on my turns. And I even chopped down a couple of forest to make room for more cottages. I totally ignored hooking up any resources. We don't have a pressing need for more resources and I was too afraid to trade any of them without a better understanding of our diplomatic situation. Besides, we have got to increase our GNP output if we are going to have any chance in this game.
 
Conroe, I think the reason we didn't responded (at least the reason *I* didn't) is because we don't understand the diplo situation either :crazyeye:

It's a damn shame about Philadelphia. When I settled it near Scythian I didn't realize it'd become a problem so soon. Hrmmmm...

I got it, should be playing tonight (~12 hours)

Roster:
ChrTh > UP
Bede > On Deck
Methos
Scowler
Maquis
Conroe > Just Played
 
:wallbash:

Hard drive failure has left me on the sidelines.......so skip until I check back in
 
Looks like I'm not going to be playing until tomorrow night, so everyone is free to comment! :D
 
Back on line so I can take it after ChrTH.

As for commentary, looks like cottages and troops are the orders of the day.
 
Turn 0 -- 600 AD

Goals this turn: Military/Settlers/Finances

I swap Philly to a Christian Monastery (although it won't be able to work on it for 2 turns).

Science to 40%, 0 gold 0gpt

Turn 1 -- 620 AD

IT: Archer defeated by Barb Archer

Chichen Itza built
Mao adopts OR
Chicago border expansion

Turn 2 -- 640 AD

Washington: Axe > Axe
New York: Axe > Spear

Philadelphia comes out of revolt. I whip the monastery.

I fortify Washington's Axe and send New York's to Philadelphia.

Los Angeles is built, start Library.

Turn 3 -- 660 AD

Isabella demands Code of Laws. We reject her empty threats.

Metal Casting comes in. I start Compass for a sec (until I see where all the other civs are techwise).

Boston: Axe > Courthouse
Atlanta: Granary > Archer (normally I don't build troops without a barracks, but since Atlanta is so far down the line
Philly: Christian Monastery > Granary

Isabella adopts Theocracy.

Ok, only a couple of Civs have Compass, so I stick with it.


Turn 4 -- 680 AD

Isabella declares war on Mao Zedong! :eek:

:coffee:

Turn 5 -- 700 AD

New York: Spear > Worker
Boston: Courthouse > Settler

Monty adopts Theocracy

Turn 6 -- 720 AD

The axes aren't going to be able to take Gepid, so I pull them back into our borders to reduce our expenses.

Turn 7 -- 740 AD

Mao wants us to declare war on Monty. I can't do it. While I don't think it'd be anything but a phony war, I'm still not sure that we won't be beating up Mao at some point. If that's the case, -1 ain't gonna hurt us.

Washington: Axe > Granary
Atlanta: Archer > Courthouse
San Fran: Granary > Lighthouse

Borders of Seattle have expanded.

I can actually go science to 50% for a few turns.

Turn 8 -- 760 AD

Izzy wants Open Borders. No dice.

Sword dropped off in LA.

Turn 9 -- 780 AD

NY: Worker > Forge. I do a little MMing to focus on commerce.

Mansa Musa adopts Vassalage.

Galley goes to sleep in San Fran.

Turn 10 -- 800 AD

Izzy wants us to cancel deals with Mao. Nope.
Cyrus wants to Open Borders. Not yet.

I move the Gepid assault troops towards it. Don't know what the odds are going to be. The sword, maybe one of the axes hasn't been promoted yet.

Well, don't know how much better off we are. Compass is due in 3. We should be able to trade it straight-up for Currency (Kublai?). At some point I think we need to figure out how diplomacy works :crazyeye:

Here's the save:

View attachment 120547

Roster:
ChrTh > Just Played
Bede > UP
Methos > On Deck
Scowler
Maquis
Conroe
 
I seem to remember a game I won by UN vote still having absolutely no idea how diplomacy worked, just kept sabotaging the other guys SS parts, till I guess they got sick of it and voted me in.

Got it. Play it tomorrow.
 
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