Current (SVN) development discussion thread

[Oregon Lee]

I think your problem is that you have 50 other cities.

Please don't use the word ********, it's insulting to Leoreth who put a lot of time and effort into this, and it's going down the same path of debate as iOnlySignIn

 

[strijder20]

Oh, so Leoreth added a penalty for razing? Glad to hear that, since I razed over 100 cities last game without penalty earning me a very easy win. Or are you just referring to the stability check which occurs at city raze?

 

[Leoreth]

There's no penalty for razing, but I suppose there should be after all.

And I will certainly not remove the mechanic only because someone isn't able to adapt to it.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

I thought there was a penalty for razing?

In one of my China games, I went from Solid to Unstable by razing the two independent India cities that spawn.

 

[Leoreth]

Razing triggers a stability check so you it does hurt you temporarily.

 

[dmitrytrue]

There's no penalty for razing, but I suppose there should be after all.

And I will certainly not remove the mechanic only because someone isn't able to adapt to it.

But maybe hundreds or even thousands of people don't like new mechanics? Just they don't write about it, and quietly reinstalling mod to 1.11 or earlier versions ;D
5 turns of anarchy/revolting is a bit too cruel, indeed, especially in late game (19-20 century), when 1-2 turn =1 unit and 1 technology. In my opinion maximum of 3 turns could be enough.

 

[The Diocletian]

The new stability mechanics are really cool, but it means bye-bye to the possibility of Domination wins. It's reasonable if you're going for a UHV or culture or even space win, but I abhor winning in those ways. But it's your mod, and I certainly don't expect you to accommodate every single winning style; that's just unreasonable.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

The new stability mechanics are really cool, but it means bye-bye to the possibility of Domination wins. It's reasonable if you're going for a UHV or culture or even space win, but I abhor winning in those ways. But it's your mod, and I certainly don't expect you to accommodate every single winning style; that's just unreasonable.

I've already won one as the Turks; check the DoC Domination Challenge thread.

But I disagree on your stance concerning winning.
The mod should NOT solely be constrained by UHVs.
If you abhor it, you're free to only pursue UHVs but asking to disallow it for
everyone else who might want it is unacceptable and selfish, or at least it seems to come off that way.
All of the other ways to win the game are quite valid and should remain so;
after all, variety is the spice of life, and not to mention a significant portion of the playerbase has moved on from solely playing for UHVs.

 

[Leoreth]

I want to accomodate every victory condition. I didn't design the mechanics with domination in mind but that's the reason why I created the feedback thread. Just because all aspects of the new mechanism are done doesn't mean they're finished.

Also I'm impressed that you've been able to exhaustively attempt every possible strategy to achieve domination with the new system. In like the time it would take ordinary people to just play one game doing nothing differently than with the old system

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

I want to accomodate every victory condition. I didn't design the mechanics with domination in mind but that's the reason why I created the feedback thread. Just because all aspects of the new mechanism are done doesn't mean they're finished.

Also I'm impressed that you've been able to exhaustively attempt every possible strategy to achieve domination with the new system. In like the time it would take ordinary people to just play one game doing nothing differently than with the old system

I only just got on summer vacation two weeks ago and next week, it's over.

Ahem.

Most of it boils down to gauging which starts are ok or not, when it comes to 3000BC.
But during some of those starts, I used them for 10-15 minute trial games to get a feel for what the new paradigm was.
But the rest were more natural conclusions I came to; of course, it is largely contextual like most things in the mod.

 

[The Diocletian]

I've already won one as the Turks; check the DoC Domination Challenge thread.

But I disagree on your stance concerning winning.
The mod should NOT solely be constrained by UHVs.
If you abhor it, you're free to only pursue UHVs but asking to disallow it for
everyone else who might want it is unacceptable and selfish, or at least it seems to come off that way.
All of the other ways to win the game are quite valid and should remain so;
after all, variety is the spice of life, and not to mention a significant portion of the playerbase has moved on from solely playing for UHVs.

Ohh, I'm interested, I'll will.

I think you misunderstood me. I dislike winning by space, culture, and UHVs. I like winning by Domination, because I think it combines the obvious military challenge with the stability challenge, in a fun mix of gameplay. I want to be able to win in multiple ways, I didn't want to encourage Leoreth to limit winning to only UHVs.

I want to accomodate every victory condition. I didn't design the mechanics with domination in mind but that's the reason why I created the feedback thread. Just because all aspects of the new mechanism are done doesn't mean they're finished.

Also I'm impressed that you've been able to exhaustively attempt every possible strategy to achieve domination with the new system. In like the time it would take ordinary people to just play one game doing nothing differently than with the old system

OK, that's encouraging to hear.

Alright, you got me, I didn't try every possible strategy possible, but I played a few games and it seems to make it a bit of a challenge, to say the least.

 

[Oregon Lee]

Attack every city in the world at once.

 

[The Diocletian]

Attack every city in the world at once.

OK, I'll try and see how it goes. Should be easy.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Ohh, I'm interested, I'll will.

I think you misunderstood me. I dislike winning by space, culture, and UHVs. I like winning by Domination, because I think it combines the obvious military challenge with the stability challenge, in a fun mix of gameplay. I want to be able to win in multiple ways, I didn't want to encourage Leoreth to limit winning to only UHVs.

I'm sorry, I misunderstood.

This thread (and others) have seen some seriously terrible suggestions in a similar vein though (reduce options! arbitrary punishments! etc.) and you're relatively new (the two often go hand in hand), but I should have given you the benefit of the doubt, so it's my bad.

On a similar note, I'm of firm belief that anyone who wants to offer up a suggestion should probably read this:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/meier-on-crafting-the-epic-journey-full-keynote-video-inside-6253256

TL;DR version with notable quotes:

http://venturebeat.com/2010/03/12/quotes-from-sid-meiers-keynote-gdc-speech/

OK, that's encouraging to hear.

Alright, you got me, I didn't try every possible strategy possible, but I played a few games and it seems to make it a bit of a challenge, to say the least.

PROTIP: You need strong siege. It didn't use to be so important, but it definitely is now. Cats won't cut it. Trebs can kind of do, but you need Bombards at the very least to start going on a tear.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Also, attacking every city at once is terrible advice.

1) It's impractical.
2) Enemy armies are much more compacted and threatening now that AI superpowers are commonplace; meaning spread out forces are easy prey.
3) You'll kill yourself in maintenance/operating outside of your borders setting it up.

 

[apenpaap]

This thread (and others) have seen some seriously terrible suggestions in a similar vein though (REDUCE options!!! arbitrary PUNISHMENTS!!! etc.)

Fixed it.

 

[Oregon Lee]

Also, attacking every city at once is terrible advice.

1) It's impractical.
2) Enemy armies are much more compacted and threatening now that AI superpowers are commonplace; meaning spread out forces are easy prey.
3) You'll kill yourself in maintenance/operating outside of your borders setting it up.

In the words of GLaDOS, I was merely processing a sarcasm self test.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Sarcasm isn't the most helpful thing when someone needs advice.

 

[artyom]

the mod is broken:
on 600 AD/emperor/normal
I culture flip a city(without a choice to not accept it) and it gets recaptured=global revolution=game over.
Or as japs I trade for military science tech and I go into global revolution/anarchy for some reason.

And razing any city, even if it may be the only city I raze in the game is usually instant revolution unless its in early game.

Also funny to watch some AI civs spend half the time with their cities in disorder (currently in my game its mongolia)

this new "chaos" modmod is bad for gameplay. Late game is unplayable. One minor event (tech trade, war declaration, culture flipped city gets conquered, losing a regular city, etc) leads to a national catastrophe equivalent to 10 great depressions combined

 

[strijder20]

Or as japs

You might watch out with using that word. It won't be well received by everyone.