Current (SVN) development discussion thread

[GreekAnalyzer]

I'm with random, as like he said there was no true "Byzantine identity".

 

[merijn_v1]

New commit:
- Trading Company requires at least one colony

When does a city count as colony?

 

[Akbarthegreat]

Why? Most historical equivalents of flips were caused by ethnic similarities or conquest upon existence. If China founds a city in Japan, it would be assumed that the small amount of Chinese population would assimilate with the locals, and it would want to join a united nation of that ethnicity. However, Byzantium was not a new ethnic group or nationality coalescing, it was merely a civil division of the Roman Empire. Most people in both halves considered themselves Romans, and the division as merely a political one to manage a new system. When Western Rome collapsed, the Eastern half was known as the Roman Empire, because that's what it was when it was originally started.

Reasons for flips to a civilization fail to make sense in the context of the Byzantines.
-Ethnic/national bond: For previous Roman territories, they would become Byzantine because the Roman Empire would be split in two. However, the only bond uniting the Romans (and Byzantines, to this extent) was the fact that they were governed by a greater power; Rome (later Constantinople). There was no "ethnic Byzantine identity", the national identity of the Byzantines was at first Roman and later Christian.
-Hasty conquest: The creation of the Eastern Roman Empire was done by dividing the existing empire in half to make maintaining a large empire less of a problem. At this point in Roman history, Rome was not expanding at all, it was contracting, and thus no conquests were made by the Byzantines during the beginning of their existence with the exception of a few border clashes with the Sassanids, but that problem had existed with the united empire as well.

Therefore, for the above reasons, the Byzantines should only flip Roman cities.

I agree.

 

[Cosmos1985]

There's a lot of different variables to consider apart from ethnicity, if one considers the different flips throughout the game - I don't really know if I'm convinced that the Byzantine flip is special to be special, so to speak.

Yes, it would be nice with a more "sophisticated" way of handling the flips - somehow being able to do so well as the Romans that the different European civs wouldn't flip could be fun, for example - but that's not something done overnight. A new flip mechanic would be quite the project.

 

[BenZL43]

Leoreth has plan to do something with the flip mechanic, btw. Let's leave this issue now.

@Leoreth, when does a city count as colony now?

 

[Leoreth]

Therefore, for the above reasons, the Byzantines should only flip Roman cities.

First of all, it's just not fun to run a Byzantine start to find that Rome has collapsed and you only have Constantinople.

Your arguments why Byzantium deserves a special treatment in that regard are simplifying the historical context of basically every other spawn. Sometimes its just better to leave the game mechanic consistent for everyone instead of making 30 special cases. Or we'd end up in situations where America should only flip English cities etc.

I don't recall, is there a way to determine that?

I have since upgraded to the latest SVN, if that complicates things.

Does the game run with the latest SVN on your computer?

When does a city count as colony?

I'm using continents, but disregard every "continent" that has less than 30 tiles. This covers all islands that are treated as continents by the game but don't constitute one geographically. If a city is on one of these islands, its continent is the closest proper continent.

Every city that is on a different continent than your capital by that logic is a colony.

For instance, if England's capital is London, Paris doesn't count as a colony because the game views both as part of the European mainland. But Boston and Cape Town do.

 

[BenZL43]

so Australia still count as continent right? How about Japan?

 

[AdrienIer]

In any case Japan would be in the Asian continent so any city there would technically be a colony (because I suppose Asia, Africa and Europe are seen as 3 different continents right ?)

 

[mrrandomplayer]

First of all, it's just not fun to run a Byzantine start to find that Rome has collapsed and you only have Constantinople.

Your arguments why Byzantium deserves a special treatment in that regard are simplifying the historical context of basically every other spawn. Sometimes its just better to leave the game mechanic consistent for everyone instead of making 30 special cases. Or we'd end up in situations where America should only flip English cities etc.

Maybe this mechanic could only apply to the AI? I could see the problem with the player being screwed over by this.

Also, in what way does this simplify the historical context of every other spawn? You yourself have given those two reasons as the primary reasons for an area being in a flip zone, so why does me using your examples oversimplify things?

 

[Leoreth]

What reasons have I given?

All I'm saying is that you're cherrypicking Byzantium's historical context at its spawn while brushing everyone else's historical context off as "yeah ethnic reasons", which isn't really true.

 

[mrrandomplayer]

What reasons have I given?

All I'm saying is that you're cherrypicking Byzantium's historical context at its spawn while brushing everyone else's historical context off as "yeah ethnic reasons", which isn't really true.

I guess the main difference between the Byzantine spawn and most other spawns was that the creation of the Byzantine Empire had exact, precise borders, which were only from the Roman Empire, which no other civ in the game has, except for the post colonial civs, whose spawns are flawed in my opinion.

 

[BenZL43]

So your point is.. if Rome sucks and fails to conquer Levant and Egypt as it should; then Byzantine should not flip it? Then the performance of Byzantine will be according to how good AI Rome perform.

Off course it could be dynamic, like...
1) If AI Roman not suck* -> Usual
2) If AI Roman suck -> Byzantine gets help to conquer Levant & Egypt

Spoiler :

*HINT: I'm pointing at the stability-based flip, just like the current re-spawn flip mechanism if I understand correctly. If Byzantine spawn and Egypt is very solid off course there's no way Egyptian cities should flip to them just because it's historical and it's coded

However that's way too far in the future imo. It should not be v1.12 concern, and you should bring it up again only if one day Leoreth touch the flip mechanism codes.
*suck = fail to conquer Levant and Egypt

 

[The Diocletian]

Does the game run with the latest SVN on your computer?

No.

 

[Leoreth]

Then you can only figure out the right revision by reverting to every one of them and trying if it loads.

 

[mrrandomplayer]

If you aren't going to code it inmad, how do I code it in? Just a simple check in the def Birth?

 

[The Diocletian]

Then you can only figure out the right revision by reverting to every one of them and trying if it loads.

Eh, don't worry about it. I'll probably get into a similar situation fairly soon. I was able to win anyways. (read: barely)

 

[ales_]

So, by the colonies logic, there are three continents: Afro-Eurasia, Americas and Australia, right?

 

[citis]

As far as the Byzantine spawn is concerned let's say that Byzantines came from a split from Rome and conquered all the starting region. As far as spawning is concerned let's see what spawning represents:

*Emergence of civilisation is uncivilised areas:
Egypt (Nile), Mesopotamia, China (Yellow river), Maya(Yucatan), Mali (Niger river), Peru (Andean mounts), Congo (Congo river)

*Emergence of civilisation is nearby areas:
Greece (near Egypt),
Phoenicians (near Mesopotamia),
Rome (near Cathrage),
Ethiopia (near Egypt),
Tamils (near India),
Japan (near China),
Korea (near China),
Vikings (near Roman Empire),
Tibet (near China),
Khmer (near China),
Indonesia (near Khmer),
Russia (near Byzantium),
Poland (near HRE and Russia),
Aztecs (near Maya)

*Unification:
India (unification under Asoka)
Persians (unification under Cyrus),
Arabia (unification under Muhamad),
Spain (unification of christian Iberian nations except Portugal),
Mongols (unification under Genkhis Khan),
Turks (unification under Osman)

*Split-offs:
Byzantium (split from Rome),
Moors (split from Arabia),
HRE (split from Franks),
Portugal (split from Castille),
Italy (split from HRE),
Netherlands (split from HRE),
USA (split from England),
Argentina (split from Spain),
Columbia (split from Spain),
Brazil (split from Portugal)

*Rebirths-reorganisation:
France (as Franks in former Western Roman Empire),
England (in former Roman city of Londinium),
Mughals (in former India),
Thailand (in former Khmer empire),
Iran (in former Persia),
Prussia (in former HRE),
Mexico (in former Aztecs)

Do we want the vast majority of splits to be other civs depedent?

 

[mrrandomplayer]

Moors, HRE: There isn't enough time to truly emulate the split. Also, the HRE was German for nearly all of its existence.

Portugal: I think that Portugal shouldn't spawn if Spain is dead (obviously, this won't come up very much, but it makes sense). Unlike Byzantium, Portugal had its own language and ethnic identity.

Italy, Netherlands: That could very well happen under any ruler. The Italians and Dutch were their own people and had their own language.

Post-colonial civs: I think that their conditional spawn makes enough sense, but it could be greatly improved by either:
A. Changing the flip zones to flip cities of a certain nationality (USA for England, Brazil for Portugal, Argentina for Spain, and two more would have to be added)
B. More dynamic names and possibly dynamic language and city map to accurately reflect the colonization of a post-colonial civ's area by a different colonial power.
Even then, the post-colonial civs in Latin America had a good deal of Native American ethnicity as well as Spanish/Portuguese.

Byzantium has none of those excuses, being an already planned peaceful split by the original civ (Rome) only from the original civ's cities.. Every single other split mentioned was caused by protests, usually war, and the master being unwilling to let go of the new civ until later. This did not happen for Byzantium.

 

[Leoreth]

If you aren't going to code it inmad, how do I code it in? Just a simple check in the def Birth?

I suggest starting with convertSurroundingCities().

Eh, don't worry about it. I'll probably get into a similar situation fairly soon. I was able to win anyways. (read: barely)

Sure, the general request to show large empires and their upkeep costs for everyone around here still stands by the way.

So, by the colonies logic, there are three continents: Afro-Eurasia, Americas and Australia, right?

No, there is still an artificial division into Africa, Europe, (the rest of) Asia, North America and South America, respectively. Since these subcontinents have more than 30 tiles, they are still recognized.

Unlike Byzantium, Portugal had its own language and ethnic identity.

I didn't know Latin was spoken in the Byzantine Empire.

Byzantium has none of those excuses, being an already planned peaceful split by the original civ (Rome) only from the original civ's cities.. Every single other split mentioned was caused by protests, usually war, and the master being unwilling to let go of the new civ until later. This did not happen for Byzantium.

Okay, up until this I thought you were arguing like this because you know too much about the Byzantine Empire, but now I'm asking myself whether you know enough about the relations between the west and east.