Current v1.13 Development Discussion
- Thread starter Leoreth
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Novicenoble
Prince
Squares rule the world.
ozqar
King
I think he'll make the map spherical.
soul-breathing
Emperor
maybe redesign of the unit roster , or even city styles?
baseballpie
Deity
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2012
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Nah, he's not even going to use a map. In fact, Leoreth is actually designing a device to interface our neural pathways directly to the game, therefore brainwashing us to live the rest of our lives playing DoC.
Chep
Emperor
back to something more serious:
please change the Mayan game
right now it just sucks, you constantly have Barbarian units that have no counter spawn inside your culture, so you either risk losing that valuable unit at 60-70% odds or risk losing that tile improvement/tile.
There seems to be 1 Holkan spawning every 3-5 turns on Regent (!) while you won't be able to produce one in that timeframe before 900AD
it feels like these barbs just spawn to make the Holkan less of an underwhelming unit by saying "look, if you save/load you can get 5 food here".
That would work if you could get the barbarians to suicide against your units, but if they just wait for reinforcements and pillage your improvements there is not much you can do.
So, suggestions:
- spawn less barbarian Holkans, don't spawn them within cultural borders (if you really want to, why not make it barbarian warriors?)
- give the Mayans a 2nd starting settler OR a Catapult OR a Swordsman OR make their cities start at size 2 (ideally with a Granary)
AND/OR change the third UHV.
1&2 can be won on levels up to Monarch right now (with some luck & save-loading) but the third is not only quite hard it is also highly luck-dependant (in my Monarch-game Byzantium came to visit me in 1280!)
on top of that the city you're now forced to use as your capitol has no production at all :/
please change the Mayan game
right now it just sucks, you constantly have Barbarian units that have no counter spawn inside your culture, so you either risk losing that valuable unit at 60-70% odds or risk losing that tile improvement/tile.
There seems to be 1 Holkan spawning every 3-5 turns on Regent (!) while you won't be able to produce one in that timeframe before 900AD
it feels like these barbs just spawn to make the Holkan less of an underwhelming unit by saying "look, if you save/load you can get 5 food here".
That would work if you could get the barbarians to suicide against your units, but if they just wait for reinforcements and pillage your improvements there is not much you can do.
So, suggestions:
- spawn less barbarian Holkans, don't spawn them within cultural borders (if you really want to, why not make it barbarian warriors?)
- give the Mayans a 2nd starting settler OR a Catapult OR a Swordsman OR make their cities start at size 2 (ideally with a Granary)
AND/OR change the third UHV.
1&2 can be won on levels up to Monarch right now (with some luck & save-loading) but the third is not only quite hard it is also highly luck-dependant (in my Monarch-game Byzantium came to visit me in 1280!)
on top of that the city you're now forced to use as your capitol has no production at all :/
If the Ciduad de guatemala east fish moves 1w, so that it is 2E of Yax Mutal. It was a suggestion I wanted to make but I forgot.
Two food resources for Yax Mutal can increase unit output through slavery, and when you control only one city, this early minor boost is in fact a large boost. The reason I founded Ciduad de Guatemala as my capital was exactly that.
Two food resources for Yax Mutal can increase unit output through slavery, and when you control only one city, this early minor boost is in fact a large boost. The reason I founded Ciduad de Guatemala as my capital was exactly that.
Chep
Emperor
Those guys also kill a 10exp-Holkan pretty easily and can't be attacked (unless you want to suicide several units for some reason):
(this is 940 AD, Regent! And I just traded 2 Holkans for 2 of them about a turn or two ago)
Moving the fish towards Yax Mutal is a good idea, but it won't be enough to make them really playable.
Yax Mutal currently still is the better starting city option over Oliximche or whatever Ciudad de Guatemala is called if founded by the Mayans (1S of Silver), the corn allows for a faster growth than improving the silver and waiting for a work-boat (plus the expansion malus will hurt quite a bit if you play without a city in your core for too long), I tried both and by founding Yax Mutal I managed to finish UHV 1 & 2 in time (although just barely and with lots of forced fights and some weird barb behaviour) on Monarch which didn't work with the city south of the silver.
A game on Heir is just too different from the other difficulty levels
(this is 940 AD, Regent! And I just traded 2 Holkans for 2 of them about a turn or two ago)
Moving the fish towards Yax Mutal is a good idea, but it won't be enough to make them really playable.
Yax Mutal currently still is the better starting city option over Oliximche or whatever Ciudad de Guatemala is called if founded by the Mayans (1S of Silver), the corn allows for a faster growth than improving the silver and waiting for a work-boat (plus the expansion malus will hurt quite a bit if you play without a city in your core for too long), I tried both and by founding Yax Mutal I managed to finish UHV 1 & 2 in time (although just barely and with lots of forced fights and some weird barb behaviour) on Monarch which didn't work with the city south of the silver.
A game on Heir is just too different from the other difficulty levels
Chep
Emperor
I am building the Lighthouse since it seems that this is the intended way to win (by building ancient wonders) since my earlier attempt without them failed quite horribly and the only Mayan victory - on HEIR - that has been posted so far also relied on getting an ancient wonder.
Also this is past 900AD where it is quite possible for me to churn out a Holkan every other turn - if I manage to protect the tiles currently occupied by the Jaguars.
Pre-900AD the Holkans are a huge problem if they spawn on or near your silver/corn you can kiss your UHV goodbye.
Post-900AD the Jaguars are a moderate problem because there is no way to defend against them outside of your cities. I guess building a city in Mexico and fortifying it could work, but for that the timeframe between you having no production (pre-900) and you having 1 productive city is just too short.
So either you sacrifice 2 holkans for every Jaguar if you protect your lands or you trade more favourably but lose half of your civs production (= the 4 tiles in Mexico that this city has control over)
And there is no counter to any of those barbarian units available for you until you get Cross/Longbowmen
But if you don't believe me just play them yourself. I would really like to see you post a victory on Monarch in the UHV-thread.
Also this is past 900AD where it is quite possible for me to churn out a Holkan every other turn - if I manage to protect the tiles currently occupied by the Jaguars.
Pre-900AD the Holkans are a huge problem if they spawn on or near your silver/corn you can kiss your UHV goodbye.
Post-900AD the Jaguars are a moderate problem because there is no way to defend against them outside of your cities. I guess building a city in Mexico and fortifying it could work, but for that the timeframe between you having no production (pre-900) and you having 1 productive city is just too short.
So either you sacrifice 2 holkans for every Jaguar if you protect your lands or you trade more favourably but lose half of your civs production (= the 4 tiles in Mexico that this city has control over)
And there is no counter to any of those barbarian units available for you until you get Cross/Longbowmen
But if you don't believe me just play them yourself. I would really like to see you post a victory on Monarch in the UHV-thread.
ozqar
King
Chep, you should've changed the production just to take the pic.
In any case, the Mayans should be able to get decent food and production from the jungle. I know there's this theory about their collapse because of deforestation, but they extracted most of their building materials from the jungle and practiced forest gardening for thousands of years before (and after) their collapse.
Also, there should have a source of spices in what would be coastal Guatemala or Chiapas. In real life, this was a cacao producing area, which means it was basically a "gold mine" (I can't recall whether it's there already or not, I can't look at the map now).
And, about those useless mountains all over the place, most of them should be hills, as I have pointed out before in the case of Aztec/Mexican territory. These mountains aren't the Andes, you know?
I managed to send a caravel in Europe in 1410AD in an other effort in heir. Historically speaking is ok (Colombus discovered Americas in 1491AD). But gameplay-wise?
Is it true that you can win if you discover a euro that hasn't discover Americas, even if some else euro has? If this is the case, then it is doable in heir.
I can live with a difficult UHV doable only in heir or regent, but I hope it remains only one.
Is it true that you can win if you discover a euro that hasn't discover Americas, even if some else euro has? If this is the case, then it is doable in heir.
I can live with a difficult UHV doable only in heir or regent, but I hope it remains only one.
Chep
Emperor
The reason I didn't change production was to show this:
Even with The Great Lighthouse AND the Colossus AND save-loading almost every single fight, researching at 100% all game, I still lost on Regent
And considering I win most other civs on Paragon, failing this one on Regent is saying quite something.
PLUS: every difficulty-increase hits the Mayans twice: Your techs become more expensive, pushing the date of your victory further and further, while the AIs techs become cheaper allowing them to reach you earlier and earlier.
Even with The Great Lighthouse AND the Colossus AND save-loading almost every single fight, researching at 100% all game, I still lost on Regent
And considering I win most other civs on Paragon, failing this one on Regent is saying quite something.
PLUS: every difficulty-increase hits the Mayans twice: Your techs become more expensive, pushing the date of your victory further and further, while the AIs techs become cheaper allowing them to reach you earlier and earlier.
ales_
Heir
Why is it?A game on Heir is just too different from the other difficulty levels
Chep
Emperor
because (from what he described in his attempt) heir has 100% faster research compared to monarch plus heir has less barbs and the ai needs more time for research/production, I'd think.
agentxorange
Warlord
Why does the Mayan game suck? Just because your strategy doesn't work doesn't mean it's bad...
Chep
Emperor
please try it and provide us with a better one then.
So far except for my "fail-victory" (a victory that actually shouldn't have been one) the only one posted for the Mayas is on the lowest possible difficulty level.
Also the points I made about the barbarians are independent of your chosen strategy.
The point I made about the difficulty-levels is independent of your chosen strategy.
And lastly: the date your UHV3 will fail is entirely independent of your chosen strategy (and only depends on the situation in Europe), you can get visitors as early as 1280 or as late as the 1500s. In the later case you should be able to win it with a decent strategy, in the former you won't.
Right now the Mayans are hugely luck-dependent. You need luck where the barbarians spawn, luck with your conquest of the independent city in the west and luck when the Euros will show up.
But sure, tell me it's just me and everything about that game is fine.
So far except for my "fail-victory" (a victory that actually shouldn't have been one) the only one posted for the Mayas is on the lowest possible difficulty level.
Also the points I made about the barbarians are independent of your chosen strategy.
The point I made about the difficulty-levels is independent of your chosen strategy.
And lastly: the date your UHV3 will fail is entirely independent of your chosen strategy (and only depends on the situation in Europe), you can get visitors as early as 1280 or as late as the 1500s. In the later case you should be able to win it with a decent strategy, in the former you won't.
Right now the Mayans are hugely luck-dependent. You need luck where the barbarians spawn, luck with your conquest of the independent city in the west and luck when the Euros will show up.
But sure, tell me it's just me and everything about that game is fine.
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