Current v1.13 Development Discussion

[ezzlar]

The cure might be worse than the disease!

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

I like the idea of maps. Revieling only the territory, and the map shall have higher price.

Only exploring units should be able to discover maps like scouts explorers and caravels.

Are you implying that all other units will just get lost into terra incognita?

 

[Fresol]

Talking about balance, far eastern ancient civilization, namely China, is already hard to play right now with constant nerfs on Wonders and UP and game mechanics. Of course on Heir it's still easy, what civ is not? While the classical Mediterranean civilizations enjoy massive trade routes and accompanying stability bonus, why should China willingly remain isolated? It's terrible gameplay if you do that.

Have you noticed how there hasn't been a China Paragon/Normal victory posted yet? It's because it's harder than many other civs, and people enjoy more on playing the other ones. If you're trying to nerf anything you are looking at the wrong place. I, on the other hand, am always interested in improving 3000 BC scenario China's game experience, since I'm Chinese it's a unique civilization that starts at the very beginning of game whose UHV requirement stretches to as late as 1800 AD. In my experience it's really unfair to play as ancients civs, their modifiers are literally crap if you compare them to the European ones.

 

[citis]

Are you implying that all other units will just get lost into terra incognita?

Inability to enter is better.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Inability to enter is better.

I don't like this idea as players will naturally and intuitively want to move their units to fogbust.
Many, many horrible game mechanics take root from going against a player's natural reaction.
(I'm looking at the "Our troops are joining the enemy in their war of liberation" mechanic, specifically.
People will naturally want to you know, fight the newborn civ, but the current mechanic, once learned, forces players to leave empty cities or spawnrush because it's so obtrusive.
I maintain that my old spawnrushing tactic was borne from necessity and frustration rather than any real desire to exploit the game.)
You know what will happen if only Scouts, Explorers and Caravels can explore, citis?
Players will escort their own and killrush the Scouts of the AI, and this will cripple them and leave them relatively isolated.

 

[Chep]

am I missing something or why can't I build the Khajuraho in the 600 AD scenario?
I am playing the Indonesians, so I started with Monotheism researched, got Aesthetics and conquered the Khmer so I have cities with Hinduism (while running Buddhism as my state religion), yet I can't build it but it isn't listed amongst the constructed wonders either.

Is it deactivated on the 600AD-scenario, considered having been built and destroyed before my game even starts?

 

[mrrandomplayer]

In addition to China being heavily nerfed, India's tech rate is also painfully slow, and it has basically been kicked out of competitive viability by that.

 

[citis]

You know what will happen if only Scouts, Explorers and Caravels can explore, citis?
Players will escort their own and killrush the Scouts of the AI, and this will cripple them and leave them relatively isolated.

That's not so much a problem, if human player wants to be a hostile player that anyone hates him. Historically, many states where hostile. Alternatively, it can include only the human player. The problem is that human has an advantage, because he knows the map, while AIs not.

 

[Hightower]

am I missing something or why can't I build the Khajuraho in the 600 AD scenario?
I am playing the Indonesians, so I started with Monotheism researched, got Aesthetics and conquered the Khmer so I have cities with Hinduism (while running Buddhism as my state religion), yet I can't build it but it isn't listed amongst the constructed wonders either.

Is it deactivated on the 600AD-scenario, considered having been built and destroyed before my game even starts?

They are deactivated, which is odd given that they were built around 950 or so. On the other hand, there's no India to build them--perhaps they should be pre-built in Pataliputra or Dilli.

 

[Tigranes]

In addition to China being heavily nerfed, India's tech rate is also painfully slow, and it has basically been kicked out of competitive viability by that.

AI India can discover Astronomy on Regent around 1200.
As far as exploration discussion goes it always struck me as unrealistic when emperor in China instantly learns about Europe from the scout who did not travel back to China yet.

 

[Fresol]

How about learning technology from a civilization instantly when it takes your fastest unit 750 years to travel one way to their land?

It's just game mechanics.

 

[Leoreth]

Is it deactivated on the 600AD-scenario, considered having been built and destroyed before my game even starts?

Correct.

 

[Chep]

in that case, could you maybe change their availability from "Industrial or earlier starts" to maybe medieval starts? (I know that Indonesia has a medieval start so it would still make not much sense, but honestly I dont see the point of it being available until very late in the game on 3000BC-starts and not at all in 600AD-starts)

 

[Shadow Merc]

in that case, could you maybe change their availability from "Industrial or earlier starts" to maybe medieval starts? (I know that Indonesia has a medieval start so it would still make not much sense, but honestly I dont see the point of it being available until very late in the game on 3000BC-starts and not at all in 600AD-starts)

I think pre-placing them in 600 AD would be a good idea. If they were built around 950 and are still present today as a World Heritage site then they should definitely be in. Plus having it there would help the Mughal UHV a little bit.

 

[Tigranes]

How about making mechanics a little more realistic. Map trading never been a major preoccupation for kings, while exchanging embassies was. Abolish cash trades for the map and building embassies with hammers. Instead when your scout admitted in new country, it can establish embassy in the capital of the host. This will exchange map knowledge between civs (after paper). No more trades for 10 gold every turn and tedious shopping around. One scout per civ per mutual embassies, until war requires to send envoys/ scouts to reestablish relations. Spies can be given a mission steal maps. And finally no military units can cross with OB unless one has defensive pact.

 

[Shadow Merc]

Talking about balance, far eastern ancient civilization, namely China, is already hard to play right now with constant nerfs on Wonders and UP and game mechanics. Of course on Heir it's still easy, what civ is not? While the classical Mediterranean civilizations enjoy massive trade routes and accompanying stability bonus, why should China willingly remain isolated? It's terrible gameplay if you do that.

Have you noticed how there hasn't been a China Paragon/Normal victory posted yet? It's because it's harder than many other civs, and people enjoy more on playing the other ones. If you're trying to nerf anything you are looking at the wrong place. I, on the other hand, am always interested in improving 3000 BC scenario China's game experience, since I'm Chinese it's a unique civilization that starts at the very beginning of game whose UHV requirement stretches to as late as 1800 AD. In my experience it's really unfair to play as ancients civs, their modifiers are literally crap if you compare them to the European ones.

With China and India, I think their problem is that they take longer to build up then the other civs do. We've seen situations where the AI can still do pretty well after they've been around for a while (India getting Astronomy, and China is usually pretty strong if they survive the Mongols).

I've played a few games with 3000BC China, and the main struggle for them is to build up the economy, which you need to do be getting currency and markets asap and building shrines, which unfortunately limits your GP diversity until you get those two prophets.

and with India their settlers are way too expensive just to get four/five other cities settled in India after your initial three.

 

[Leoreth]

New commit:
- fixed Canadian loading time display
- fixed Atlantic coast display and check for the first Canadian UHV goal
- fixed a bug that gave an additional GA turn if the GA was triggered by a building during anarchy
- seceding cities in the New World always go to the Natives instead of the Independents (to avoid early plague and too advanced independents)

In case you noticed, there are also some DLL changes that have no effect right now, they are part of another feature I'm currently working on.

I also want to change the third Maya goal. I like the suggestion to have them discover Europe before the Europeans discover America, but I'm not sure about the smartest way to implement this. But it will come soon.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Sorry, I'm with mrrandomplayer and Fresol here. Shadow Merc brings up some excellent points about China and India that I'm inclined to agree with too.
Which leads me to believe that there needs to be some fine differences and changes in some civs depending on whether they are under human or AI control.

Ancient civs are nerfed hard as is. There is no point in nerfing them more from when they were initially boosted (China & India in 1.8 and Rome & Phoenicia in 1.9, etc.).
DoC took a big step forward from vanilla by making many of these civs multifaceted.
You can't tell me seriously with a straight face that you'd rather play Rhye's version
of China or Phoenicia than Leoreth's.

About scouting and Tigranes' suggestion.
If you simulationist guys wanted, I would take a moment to re-evaluate what you're pushing here.
There are some things better left abstracted.
So what if scouts instantaneously beam back information to the homeland?
Do we complain about the Leaderheads being around for far longer than a normal human lifespan as well?
How about Roman conquerors, who can instantly teleport to Australia if you settle there?
Or the fact that units don't need a supply train?
Really, some of these things are better left basic and intuitive.
If you want these things, play Europa Universalis. That's hardcore simulationist design at work.
It works because that game is focused on these fine details.
DoC is more streamlined and tries to strike a balance wherever possible.

Perhaps you guys should refer to this triangle and clarify where you stand in terms of design vision:

The triangle explained:

http://wordsonplay.com/2009/10/12/the-big-triangle/

 

[Lone Wolf]

Europa Universalis? Simulationist? Pah, I say!

The triangle looks tasty, though

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Europa Universalis? Simulationist? Pah, I say!

The triangle looks tasty, though

It is probably between Simulationist and Representational in terms of design.

I would place DoC somewhere a bit closer to Abstract and Representational.