Current v1.13 Development Discussion

[soul-breathing]

svn 787 isn't compatible with VD&ECs, right? I choose Canada then the game errors and exit automatically.

svn 787 should be svn 788, my fault, thanks to FinalLegendZero.

 

[FinalLegendZero]

svn 787 isn't compatible with VD&ECs, right? I choose Canada then the game errors and exit automatically.

Canada's added in 788, not 787. And I'm running VD&EC on 788 without any problems.

 

[soul-breathing]

Canada's added in 788, not 787. And I'm running VD&EC on 788 without any problems.

Yes, you're right. And I've found what is the problem and solved it, thanks.

The bug isn't to do with VD&ECs. It's because of some conflicts with CvGameCoreDLL files.

 

[hbl13]

Really nice surprise to add Canada. Thx. Hope one day Australia, South Africa and Philippines will be implemented too so decolonisation process will be even more historically.

 

[Leoreth]

Okay this doesn't really have anything to do with anything, but what would you think about having map trades only reveal controlled territory (or current line of sight) instead of all discovered tiles? I always thought map trades take away from exploring the map and on the flip side provide too easy trade material for the AI.

 

[Fresol]

I'm afraid it's not a good idea to only reveal line of sight, it's not like gaining their vision or anything, it's a map trade. And I don't think the player should explore the map all by himself, it's just tiring and not rewarding at all.

 

[Tigranes]

I'm afraid it's not a good idea to only reveal line of sight, it's not like gaining their vision or anything, it's a map trade. And I don't think the player should explore the map all by himself, it's just tiring and not rewarding at all.

+1 here. What I would rather love to see is some option to automate map sales. It is so time consuming to require from the ruler to go around the globe again and again trying to get a fair deal for the map tiles you are ready to sell. How about game checks it for you with one your click and present you with one table showing offers from all the known civs and willingness to trade. Player can review deals, uncheck unwanted ones and and get cash with one click.

 

[Visard]

I like the idea. Current map trading isn't very realistic and it is troublesome if you want to receive maximum cash. Now you can send scout to explore Africa around 1000BC and after discovery of paper maybe 2000 years later sell exact map of Africa to every other civ.

But I would also like make exploration harder anyway.

 

[Tigranes]

It is already so much harder than vanila game. Scouts have 1, Jungles and Marshes are impassable, Natives act as Barbarians, Animals even late in Middle Ages. Not to mention Capes. If there is really a strong feeling that map trading brings too much advantage to whoever is conducting it -- simply lower the base cost.

On unrelated note I am just loving the peacemaking mission Canada has. Who knew one can incorporate not very often used diplo option into major UHV goal! The only bad thing is civs charging very very heave price even if they need peace themselves and no where near winning the war with another civ. Can we either lower price for peace or make canada to start with the same techs as mother country (whoever controlled the capital right before spawn).

 

[baseballpie]

Okay this doesn't really have anything to do with anything, but what would you think about having map trades only reveal controlled territory (or current line of sight) instead of all discovered tiles? I always thought map trades take away from exploring the map and on the flip side provide too easy trade material for the AI.

Well, on the topic of maps, I had always thought that, what if your discovered tiles began to degrade over time? You explored this area 500 years ago, and scholars had long forgotten the area. So the tiles blackout and you have to send explorers out again. After a certain amount of time, say 200 turns after the last time it was in one of your units' line of sight, any discovered tiles still not in you line of sight blackout. And maybe this scales with distance. So any tiles over 50 tiles away from any one of your cities degrades twice as fast. And maybe, a scout or explorer gives a tile double the the time to degrade (although those last two are quite a stretch). And maybe, one you discover paper, the tiles degrade 4 times slower. And at satellites, the entire effect vanishes. Just a thought, although I can imagine that that would be a tremendous headache to code (if even possible at all).

 

[Lone Wolf]

The human player knows the map anyway, so all this would be just a pointless annoyance.

 

[ezzlar]

It is also a bit unrealistic that China can explore whole of asia and Europe in 3000 BC. Boats dont get past capes or units usually dont survive Africa early game. More barbs or shut mountain pass in desert region to deter early contacts?

 

[Tigranes]

Well, on the topic of maps, I had always thought that, what if your discovered tiles began to degrade over time?

PAE Ancient Europe mod has this feature (albeit on steroids) and it simply drives me crazy. You can make cash every single turn with 20+ civs you have met simply because some of them will have your civ's tiles forgotten. Players end up using Alt S button and manually labeling every important tile which can become invisible. Please no. Maps been of great interests in stories about pirates, not kings.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

The human player knows the map anyway, so all this would be just a pointless annoyance.

I agree. The thing is, exploration is not inherently rewarding in DoC. The map is a known factor and as I've said before, we can't all have collective amnesia and forget where north is. Maybe if you gave us an upside down or vertical version of the map, but the new experience would wear off quickly. The problem hinges on the main draw of exploration mechanics in games; they are heavily dependent on new experiences. It's why procedurally generated games are so popular lately.

It is also a bit unrealistic that China can explore whole of asia and Europe in 3000 BC. Boats dont get past capes or units usually dont survive Africa early game. More barbs or shut mountain pass in desert region to deter early contacts?

Lol. Please.

Firstly, why single out China? Every other Eurasian civ does this too. I always send units east to trade with China and India.
Second, Chinese expeditions have been around since antiquity. Ban Chao is perhaps the best example.
Third, the AIs will naturally path their units to explore anyway. You could probably get them to stay in one place but that would be boring. Trying to stop the AI from exploring is like trying to reverse Earth's orbit.
Fourth, lol. It's cute that you think the Gobi is the problem. Why would anybody pass through there when it's both quicker and safer to pass through Siberia? Or OB India and pass through Indochina?
If you want to nerf Woodsman, go ahead. It's one of the weakest promo lines in the game and you'd be making Scouts and Explorers even more useless but I'm sure you didn't think of that.
We could flood Eurasia with barbs to satisfy your desire to stop things that are going to happen anyway, but that would end up helping nobody. Not AI nor player.

PAE Ancient Europe mod has this feature (albeit on steroids) and it simply drives me crazy. You can make cash every single turn with 20+ civs you have met simply because some of them will have your civ's tiles forgotten. Players end up using Alt S button and manually labeling every important tile which can become invisible. Please no. Maps been of great interests in stories about pirates, not kings.

I agree. The inherent problem is that it's too much busywork that just wouldn't be fun to manage. I don't want to spend a quarter of my turn time trading maps every turn when I could be managing a stack or micromanaging my city builds.

 

[BenZL43]

I like that map feature. It actually gave the game a somewhat mysterious feels. As said above, annoying or not, it doesn't matter for the Human as we can't all suddenly become amnesiac.

Maybe slightly larger than the territory that civilization we're trading with controls?

 

[ezzlar]

TD: Like I mentioned DoC already have several features to discourage ahistorical exploration. My suggestion was about adresseing the one of the few loop holes. And it wasnt intended to forbid exploration. Just to make it an effort in early game. With the chinese as example.

Edit: Speaking of maps. Some late game civs still start with minimal maps. America should have Europe at least!

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

TD: Like I mentioned DoC already have several features to discourage ahistorical exploration. My suggestion was about adresseing the one of the few loop holes. And it wasnt intended to forbid exploration. Just to make it an effort in early game. With the chinese as example.

About capes, even though they hinder trans-Eurasian sea contact, they don't negate the primary function of sending ships out so early.
For Europe, the Cape of Good Hope doesn't prevent the most valuable function of sending a ship down the western coast of Africa; your goal is to obtain Slaves.
For Asia, contact with Indonesia, Tamils and Arabia is the main goal of sending out ships along the coast.

But fair enough. Although I don't believe it is a loophole, rather, to me, it is a function of exploration in the first place.
My position is predicated on the fact that exploring is not inherently rewarding in DoC for a number of reasons:
-The map is a known factor.
-Exploration is a generally wasteful endeavor compared to other pursuits
(i.e. raising armies, building wonders, infrastructure, etc.)

There are few tangible benefits to exploration:
-Popping huts.
-Establishing an Embassy of sorts with another civilization to maintain contact, diplomacy and trade.
-Mapmaking, as a source of income to sell to other civs who do not have sea access.
-Much of the early metagame hinges on early contact between different civs, if one desires to bring an Ancient civ into the Industrial/Modern era.

These are things exploration achieves that is in its own little niche.
In other words, it's already a weak pursuit and I don't think it should be hindered for that reason.

Edit: Speaking of maps. Some late game civs still start with minimal maps. America should have Europe at least!

I agree with this. It feels strange starting off as Prussia and having next to no knowledge of the world outside Europe. Many late game civs, in my opinion, will require an updated starting map.

 

[ezzlar]

TD: The advantage of popping most of the huts and keeping a 4000 year stationary warrior in Europe for rewarding OBs and tech trade is still worth the effort. And it imbalances the early game. A chinese explorer in Europe makes huge difference for a tiny production effort. Should the game be balanced around this fact or balanced around an early European contact?

 

[citis]

I like the idea of maps. Revieling only the territory, and the map shall have higher price.

Only exploring units should be able to discover maps like scouts explorers and caravels.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

TD: The advantage of popping most of the huts and keeping a 4000 year stationary warrior in Europe for rewarding OBs and tech trade is still worth the effort. And it imbalances the early game. A chinese explorer in Europe makes huge difference for a tiny production effort. Should the game be balanced around this fact or balanced around an early European contact?

There is a unique tech trading penalty in place for China already actually.
They can't trade away monopoly techs to other civs, so the possibility of trading off Math or Calendar for something good is curbed, at least for the AI.
For the Human, it requires teching along a very rigid path to make sure you get everything you need.
I reiterate again that I don't think early exploration should be punished, and moreover, if desirable,
I also don't see a way to prevent early exploration without radically changing the map resulting in inaccuracies, or turning the barb spawns up to eleven, which hurt all other exploring civs as well.
I'll state again that the AI naturally sets units to exploratory behavior (Patrol, or some of the other unit options) and having them constantly lose units to Barbs and denting their stability will make them all collapse ahead of time.