Current v1.13 Development Discussion

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Exactly. Tile yields are associated with the cities that work them, but resource control is global for the entire player. The city only checks which resources the controlling player has when determining its health.

Would it be possible to let those resources provide health if it is the the vicinity, rather than connect it to trade network. Certain resources removed the vicinity requirement.

It would be something like this:

Smokehouse
+1 health for pig, cow, sheep or deer in the vicinity. (Before refrigeration)
+1 health for pig, cow, sheep or deer if your empire has access to the resources (after refrigeration, like it is now)
 
All of these buildings you're listing, they can me owned by a government/central authority, or by a private, or by a social group. There's no reason to assume that they can only be run in one way.
 
Exactly. Tile yields are associated with the cities that work them, but resource control is global for the entire player. The city only checks which resources the controlling player has when determining its health.

Well poop.

What about rolling the health bonus into something other than a building? For example +1 health for each stable and camp with the agricultural civic.

There's also the <iHealthPercent> in features, could a stealth feature be added to the map to represent this local health source?

I just don't like having so many powerful health buildings being available so early.
 
I was also thinking about the health from features. that mechanic seems to work in just the way you are looking for, ie local.
 
How? More health from forests?

Another solution would be to adapt the happiness from improvement feature for health.

But I don't really understand the point about early building health. We are one potential health ahead now, but it comes from resources that cannot be traded.
 
no I meant getting the game to add health from resources the same way it adds it from features.
 
I'd support health from forests.
It's sad to see them all get cut down. Having lumbermills available with guilds was a good step, though.
 
But I don't really understand the point about early building health. We are one potential health ahead now, but it comes from resources that cannot be traded.

I think the goal in finding local health resources is creating an offset to balance a more global health nerf since it is our understanding that the dual goals here are historically accurately representing the health effect of pre-regrigeration perishables and lowering global health.

I guess the disconnect here is that you seem to think that the trading restriction has accomplished your health goal and combined with the granary nerf more than offsets the smokehouse's introduction resulting in a sufficient health nerf.

Let's look at a sample civilization, England. England has wheat and can only trade for Rice through India or China so not only does it require maintaining contact but also happening to catch one of those two civilization needing fish, sheep, or cow. This is difficult to maintain that rice rarely comes to England until they start building their colonial empire. Therefore the granary nerf only costs them one health.

The smokehouse takes advantage of the local sheep, cow, and deer. Theoretically taking Normandy could result in pigs as well but this is hardly reliable. Therefore the smokehouse is a 3 health buff.

The trading restriction only limits England's ability to get clams and pigs as all other perishable resources can be found locally. Since pigs used to be a one health resource until supermarket while clams are a one health resource until lighthouse this is a loss of two potential health from trading with a partner that needs fish, sheep, or cow until lighthouses get built at which point the loss grows to three health.

So on balance the health nerfs are completely off-settable for England with a smokehouse even without any expansion until lighthouse at which point the nerf is only one health. Is this a sufficient nerf to accomplish your goals? Perhaps you have more coming in which case this point is moot.

How? More health from forests?

I was imagining a stealth feature a la marshes on tiles that also have the perishable resources on them. However this would probably be a giant pain in the ass to implement, clutter the game, and create an issue if there is another feature at play (such as every deer on the map).

Another solution would be to adapt the happiness from improvement feature for health.

You mean the <iHappiness> line for improvements? So this would just be +1 local health for every pasture, camp, and fishing boat on the map? I would prefer this to having a smokehouse/lighthouse health bonuses. The benefit to localization of bonuses is that the smaller the civilization the less it is affected. London still benefits from it's nearby sheep, cows, deer, and fish; British Kingston does not. There is also less clutter. DoC's solution for a problem has rarely been, "let's just throw it into a building" and the mod is more elegant because of it.

I also like your idea of converting sheep into a happiness resource like cotton and removing it from the refrigeration limitation. That said I have not considered the impacts that would have on specific civilizations.
 
New commit: new terrain feature: Rainforest
- minus 1 food
- passable only to civilian units and elephants
- can build mines, cottages and plantations with Iron Working
- Khmer can enter Rainforest and build Farms due to their UP
- rainforests are included in the Congolese UP
- replaces jungle in India, Indochina, Indonesia, Polynesia, West Africa, East Africa and Mesoamerica

I'll comment on the health/happiness discussion tomorrow.
 
Caveman2Cosmos and Rise of Mankind: A New Dawn both have buildings that give effects only if a resource is in the city vicinity; you could probably use their code.
I believe obsoleting a resource removes it from the trade Network and therefore removing all happiness, health, production speed increase and other effects. It doesn't remove the resources yield on the map.
 
Oh, I forgot to mention the jungle changes. Jungle tiles now cannot be improved at all until Biology. As usual, jungle is removed when improved (rainforest remains). All tiles with resources should be Rainforest now, so they will still be accessible.

Other than that, it is unchanged.
 
I think the goal in finding local health resources is creating an offset to balance a more global health nerf since it is our understanding that the dual goals here are historically accurately representing the health effect of pre-regrigeration perishables and lowering global health.
Yes, although balancing overall available health is the priority here. Achieving this by also improving on historical accuracy is of course preferable. But the resource system already is highly abstract, so inaccuracies are tolerable. To quote Lincoln, if I can preserve balance while making resources more accurate, I will do it, if I can preserve balance while keeping resources less accurate, I will do it.

I guess the disconnect here is that you seem to think that the trading restriction has accomplished your health goal and combined with the granary nerf more than offsets the smokehouse's introduction resulting in a sufficient health nerf.

Let's look at a sample civilization, England. England has wheat and can only trade for Rice through India or China so not only does it require maintaining contact but also happening to catch one of those two civilization needing fish, sheep, or cow. This is difficult to maintain that rice rarely comes to England until they start building their colonial empire. Therefore the granary nerf only costs them one health.

The smokehouse takes advantage of the local sheep, cow, and deer. Theoretically taking Normandy could result in pigs as well but this is hardly reliable. Therefore the smokehouse is a 3 health buff.

The trading restriction only limits England's ability to get clams and pigs as all other perishable resources can be found locally. Since pigs used to be a one health resource until supermarket while clams are a one health resource until lighthouse this is a loss of two potential health from trading with a partner that needs fish, sheep, or cow until lighthouses get built at which point the loss grows to three health.

So on balance the health nerfs are completely off-settable for England with a smokehouse even without any expansion until lighthouse at which point the nerf is only one health. Is this a sufficient nerf to accomplish your goals? Perhaps you have more coming in which case this point is moot.
Good point, I didn't really mean to target England in particular with this. I also have some vague plans to remove resources there, but I don't know when I will get to that.

You mean the <iHappiness> line for improvements? So this would just be +1 local health for every pasture, camp, and fishing boat on the map? I would prefer this to having a smokehouse/lighthouse health bonuses. The benefit to localization of bonuses is that the smaller the civilization the less it is affected. London still benefits from it's nearby sheep, cows, deer, and fish; British Kingston does not. There is also less clutter. DoC's solution for a problem has rarely been, "let's just throw it into a building" and the mod is more elegant because of it.
For example. Associating this with livestock and seafood (maybe grain), but not other resources could help and keep things more realistic. However, such a solution would prevent these resources from becoming tradeable later on. I'll think about it some more.

I also like your idea of converting sheep into a happiness resource like cotton and removing it from the refrigeration limitation. That said I have not considered the impacts that would have on specific civilizations.
Me neither. Sheep would probably work best as a hybrid resource, in which case I would suggest +1 innate health and +1 happiness with Market.

In the future, I could even imagine a Weaver building that produces happiness with Sheep, Cotton and Silk.
 
Good point, I didn't really mean to target England in particular with this. I also have some vague plans to remove resources there, but I don't know when I will get to that.

I was just using England as an example because they have clearly defined borders and one can assume that all English cities would have coastal access. Other western civilizations have similar access. Spain and France for example gets domestic access to all 3 perishable sea resources. Germany and Scandanavia get domestic access to 3/4 land perishables. My main point was that the granary and trade nerfs do not affect much of the western world as strongly as one would think upon first glance.
 
Not sure which update it was but Indonesia's name map is off. Jakarta is fine but the others seem to come from the list rather than location (Jambi at Makassar, Borobudur at Ambon etc)

EDIT: hey, think this might be on my side actually (unless anyone else has a similar experience).
 
Not sure which update it was but Indonesia's name map is off. Jakarta is fine but the others seem to come from the list rather than location (Jambi at Makassar, Borobudur at Ambon etc)

EDIT: hey, think this might be on my side actually (unless anyone else has a similar experience).

It's not just you. I brought up this issue a few revisions ago in the "Bug Reports and Technical Issues" thread - though I had thought that only the island of Sumatra was affected (further testing confirms your side - everything but Java seems to have the same problem).
 
Probably that's because of the recent map changes on India. Indonesia is located east of it so whatever happens to the India might affect Indonesia's CNM as well.
 
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