D+2: "The wisdom of life consists in the elimination of non-essentials."

Originally posted by TimTheEnchanter
Never had a nuke war before, I understand that they are not limited to the 16 moves like we are, right? That is, the Russians could start dropping nukes in our heartland if they wanted to, even though it's out of the reach of the Nukes from their cities.

Can/do they do the same with their paradrops, or do they stay within the paradrop range (10 squares?) for those?

Why do I have this feeling I'm not only going to experience my first nuclear war, but also my first global warming in this game. :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

They are limited to their normal range, but with one big exception. They can be 'launched' from any city the AI has, not just the city that the nuke is actually in. So, if they build 20 nukes in one turn, in various cities, they can launch all 20 against one spot if they wanted. Plus, they don't need to have a path to the target either, they just 'appear' there.

So, what we can do is have certain areas be in range of the AI and create a 'nuclear sponge'. The AI knows exactly which cities have SID's in them and won't send nukes at those cities. But, it doesn't take into account the cities that may provide coverage for other cities. So, we build a city in the midle of a couple other cities and rush a SDI in that city. It then provides coverage to the other cities and the AI will throw nukes at those cities.

I too am leaning towards avoiding research of rockety for ourselves. Since I'm sure cities will be switching back and fourth for awhile I would expect the AI to soon have most of the techs we have.

Paratroopers are used just as normal units are, they have to be in the city that would use them.
 
I'm starting to look at the savefile and a plan is starting to take shape. There's a lot I want to do but it is difficult to squeeze everything into 5 turns. By the end of my reign I'd like us to have 4 more wonders than we have now but this may not succeed. We need more barracks, some mechanical infantries, lots of additional howitzers, the railroad network in some of our colonies and captured lands sucks and makes doing something constructive difficult until it is fixed, I've found hardly any of the 40 spies I know we have, many of our cities are undefended and we need to deliver demanded goods to Russia to get science advances. Also a major problem is that we are at war against only one civ, the Vikings. The Russians will probably immediately sneak attack but a revolution may be needed to finish of the Spanish.

I'll also start to soften up the Russian defenses east of Russian Tee. Capturing Magnitogorsk again now looks premature to me (but getting the cash was great so maybe this was OK - I plan to rush buy stuff for roughly $8000 on my first turn) since the Russians will probably capture it again next turn (I assume they'll break the cease fire) and get one of our techs. I'll probably not capture any Russian cities there but will attack them constantly.

As this shows everything is in the planning stages, I'll probably need 1-3 hours of planning before I start playing tomorrow or in Saturday.

An impressive fact is that the Russians have a size 47 (!!) city, possibly the biggest AI city I have ever seen, and 29362 (!!) gold, possibly the biggest amount of gold I've ever seen an AI civ have.
 
Going back to the AI and nukes, unfortunately I've been on the receiving end many times, and I've noticed they target the bigger cities and they'll send in nukes even if they can't get a unit in to capture the city. Cleaning up the fallout takes some time! Also, I don't think I've ever seen them go for the same city twice.
 
Originally posted by TheViking
I'm starting to look at the savefile and a plan is starting to take shape. There's a lot I want to do but it is difficult to squeeze everything into 5 turns. By the end of my reign I'd like us to have 4 more wonders than we have now but this may not succeed. We need more barracks, some mechanical infantries, lots of additional howitzers, the railroad network in some of our colonies and captured lands sucks and makes doing something constructive difficult until it is fixed, I've found hardly any of the 40 spies I know we have, many of our cities are undefended and we need to deliver demanded goods to Russia to get science advances. Also a major problem is that we are at war against only one civ, the Vikings. The Russians will probably immediately sneak attack but a revolution may be needed to finish of the Spanish.
Don't bite off too much...Looking at the save last night, we've got some serious defensive weaknesses. We have virtually no defenses against the mongol horde outside Blenheim Palace. The Russians have us surrounded, etc.
I'll also start to soften up the Russian defenses east of Russian Tee. Capturing Magnitogorsk again now looks premature to me (but getting the cash was great so maybe this was OK - I plan to rush buy stuff for roughly $8000 on my first turn) since the Russians will probably capture it again next turn (I assume they'll break the cease fire) and get one of our techs. I'll probably not capture any Russian cities there but will attack them constantly.
Don't forget to sell improvements in Magnitogorsk as well. they'll get destroyed as the city changes hands anyway. Our mountain forts and Russian Tee are not particularly well defended. We need some Mech Infantries up there quickly.

Also, Are you planning to leave me 8000 gold to spend on my turn as well?
As this shows everything is in the planning stages, I'll probably need 1-3 hours of planning before I start playing tomorrow or in Saturday.
Take your time.

An impressive fact is that the Russians have a size 47 (!!) city, possibly the biggest AI city I have ever seen, and 29362 (!!) gold, possibly the biggest amount of gold I've ever seen an AI civ have.
I'm not sure how the AI deals with food at this level, but those cities are huge but they're all Elvi. I noticed this when I started going after the Zulus. They have massive food shortages but still appear to grow. (BTW: I noticed a couple of the cities we've taken still have elvi instead of Tax men.) Also, does anyone know what happens when the AI crosses the 30000+ gold limit? Is this going to cause problems?
 
I had a problem with a GOTM where the opposing civs had a huge amount of cash - quite possibly more than €30000. When I took a city I got a negative amount of money from them - meaning I could buy improvements etc. When a city was taken back, the AI got that negative amount putting me back to zero. I've patched my copy since then, but I don't know if that bug was resolved or not.
 
On the Plus side for Rocketry are the (hopefully vet) Aegis crusiers. -- Having some of them at sea will certainly ease the fears of the low coastal defenses.
 
Originally posted by Jayne
I had a problem with a GOTM where the opposing civs had a huge amount of cash - quite possibly more than €30000. When I took a city I got a negative amount of money from them - meaning I could buy improvements etc. When a city was taken back, the AI got that negative amount putting me back to zero. I've patched my copy since then, but I don't know if that bug was resolved or not.
Do you mean you "could buy" improvemetns or "could NOT buy" the improvements?

When you say patched - was it the 2.4.2 patch or something else? This could be very important as the Russkies should cross that threshold within the next few turns.
 
To answer (or TRY to answer) as question a while ago regarding the growth of the AI cities:

Andu explained this to me once, and I hope I recall correctly. At D+2 level, so little food is needed that once the AI builds a granary in a city, it can grow almost instantly and to huge levels - even with all of that starvation. It has to do with the fact that after a city grows, if it has a granary 1/2 of the food box is filled the next turn. At D+2, needing so little food means that even with 1/2 the food box they have enough to grow again. I guess it takes into account what would normally be a 'regular' food box in this case. I hope this makes SOME sense.

Consider that Moscow has the Pyramids in it. Yikes.

I know that my classic civ has the ~30,000 gold limit in it for the player. I've never seen the AI become so flush before. Any way to run some tests?
 
So maybe what we should do is

a) empty out all of the ai cities

b) watch them continue to grow to size 127 (each)

c) take them all on the last turn & submit the game for a hall of fame record...:goodjob:
 
Does anyone know if we will be able to research rocketry next (i.e. after AF which we are currently researching) ?

The reason I ask is that this would greatly affect military planning. If we can research rocketry next I'm going to nuke Moscow within 5 turns if I can :nuke: :devil2: :satan:

This 30000+ gold 'overflow' is a major headache. That said I wouldn't be surprised if I were able to hack the SAV files to prevent this by lowering the amount of gold the Russians have...
 
Please be sure to reinforce the Northern Fort, it is being defended by a Calvary at the moment.

Also, since I see much more AI navy out there, remember that we can use Spies to sabotage their units. We don't have to be at war with them and it doesn't drop our reputation either. Each sabotage will drop the unit by 50% of it's current heatlh.

That's what I did against the Spanish right before I got them to declare war on us.
D+2_Ships.jpg


I really hope we can get some nuclear sponges set-up before we research anything nuclear. With how the Russinas cities will be flip-flopping, the AI is sure to get any techs we have at some point or another.

Edit: It looks like we are without a Barracks in Tsingtao. Perhaps that should be rectified? Also, if we are thinking of pushing on the Russians, some Armor (with a movement of 3) could come in handy for clearing the rail lines of any annoying units that are in the way.
 
TimTheEnchanter wrote:Do you mean you "could buy" improvemetns or "could NOT buy" the improvements?

When you say patched - was it the 2.4.2 patch or something else? This could be very important as the Russkies should cross that threshold within the next few turns.

Sorry - I meant count not buy improvements.

I think the patch I applied was the 2.4.2 patch (it's the one on the downloads page anyway). I had originally thought my copy of CivII was up-to-date because I was using my husbands recently released budget copy and not my original copy from when it first came out - but after getting negative bounty (and a negative score at some point as well) I decided I may not have the most up-to-date version after all.
 
I'm now at the start of my last turn. This has taken a lot of time (most of Saturday) and I may not have time to completely finish and post the game until Tuesday. However, I can say that we certainly live in very interesting times...

Since I'm on my last turn I can now post a long teaser (a lot has happened) despite the fact that I'm not completely finished:

* The barbarians have returned - where ?
* There has been fierce fighting in the Blenhaim Palace area. What has happened there ?
* We have more wonders than 5 turns ago.
* Lots of enemy ships have been attacking the western coast of our main continent. Have we lost any cities there ?
* Can we build nukes ? Have we built nukes ? Has someone been nuked ?
* Four new cities have been founded.
* Enemy espionage attempts have been foiled.
* Action had to be taken very early on against possible global warming. Was it successful ?
* Cities have been captured at several widely spaced locations. Where and by whom ?
* Several techs have been discovered.
* We have rush bought stuff for a total of at least $30,000 (I have lost count of it).
* Magnitogorsk has changed hands. Dozens of units have died in that area. Why ?
* We have an air force.
 
I'm finished playing and will soon post a log. Meanwhile here are the highlights of the espionage I conducted during my turns, two impressive Russian cities.

Moscow:

moscow_1870ad.jpg


As can be seen it is a size 43 city defended with no less than 17 (!!) units, of which 12 are alpine troops. If the AI instead built high-attack units at this rate things would be more challenging...

Dnepropetrovsk:

dnepropetrovsk_1870ad.jpg


This is in even more impressive city in that it is of size 50, the biggest AI city I have ever seen. However, it's not as heavily defended as Moscow with 'only' 13 units inside.

More details soon...
 
Originally posted by TheViking
Moscow:
As can be seen it is a size 43 city defended with no less than 17 (!!) units, of which 12 are alpine troops. If the AI instead built high-attack units at this rate things would be more challenging...


:viking: - :confused: - :groucho: - :nya: - :nuke:
(Viking thinking to himself, "If only there was a weapon that could quickly take care of 17 units in a city all at once..." ;) )
 
Reign of Shi "nuke them" Huangdi 1866-1871

I'll start with the highlight of my turns:

nuke_moscow.jpg


As this shows I have been having a little fun :D :devil2:

1866 AD (0):
Sell the factory in Magnitogorsk for $200. Change some redundant Elvii to taxmen, this yields about $250/turn.
Switch to freight in Tsingtao which supplies something the big, accessible Russian cities demand.
IPRB battleship in Paoting.
IPRB military units in two of the four cities on the main continent that have barracks (one of these abandoned an almost completed airport).
IRB one transport and one airport in the island south of Russian Tee.
IPRB lots of transports on the Greek continent and elsewhere to be able to transfer troops all the way to their destinations next turn. This includes a transport in Port of Spain to ferry some howitzers back to the main continent for later action in Russia and Vikingland.
Change production in many (most) cities leading to increased focus on barracks, howitzers and mechanized infantries.
Rush buy freight in several relatively large cities that supply goods the Russians demand in cities that are relatively easy to reach.
Rush buy at least one airport on every continent.
Move mechanized infantry from Russian Tee to the fortress east of it (one of the few units I can move :-( )
Rush buy mech inf 'from scratch' in Romanov.
Rush buy aqueducts and sewer systems in a few carefully selected cities to allow them to grow.
Pop. 107,220,000.

1867 AD (1):
Greeks and Vikings cancel peace treaty. Lots of Greek ships north of Russian Tee. Lots of Mongol troops move, ships and especially troops near Blenheim Palace.
Global warming feared !!!
Lots of barbarians appear north of the Mongol city of Quinsay but there is no immediate danger from them.
The Russians do NOT !!! sneak attack but move lots of troops around near Magnitogorsk where a power plant gets sold.
Viking cruiser kills our engineers SE of Nanking.
Spanish government overthrown, they become a republic but do not sneak attack.
Food exhausted in Tugela and Bapedi.
Mpondo and Barcelona running dangerously low on food.
Pollution 130, pop. 109,730,000.
Cancel some of the stuff engineers are doing, they are badly needed for more strategic tasks (railroads, fortresses and cleaning up pollution).
Pollution cleaned up so it is down to 30.
City of Foo Bar founded for strategic purposes, transports then enter that city.
Jarrow captured and we now have the Women's Suffrage but the morons in the Senate sign a cease fire with the Vikings.
Rush buy some barracks and mechanized infantries in cities with 0 shields completed, saying that our forces are spread thin is a major understatement.
Finish a north-south running railroad on the west coast of the 'Greek' continent (near Vancouver etc.).
Engineer added to Russian Tee to enable it to grow by celebrating.
Some troops (mainly howitzers) moved from Spain back to the main continent.
Withdraw the freight near Naples in anticipation of a Mongol sneak attack.
Transport lots of troops to the Greek continent.
The Russians now have $30996.

1868 AD (2):
Russians break cease fire, capture Magnitogorsk, get Nuclear Fission and also kill two engineers near Romanov. We refuse to speak to the Russians following these events.
Vikings develop flight. They want to talk, it turns out they are unhappy about our troop near Jarlshof. We are very happy to hear that :D.
Mongols acquire economics from the Spanish. To our big disappointment the Spanish do not break the cease fire.
Advanced flight discovered, choose rocketry :nuke:.
Pollution 130, pop. 108,180,000. No global warming warnings this time.
Moscow's Nuke founded for purely strategic reasons, immediately rush buy city walls there.
We kill everything inside Magnitogorsk and lots of Russian units near that city but refrain from capturing anything. Many non-veteran howitzers become veteran by this. The howitzers then retreat to Russian Tee.
Coal (demanded) from Tsingtao to Novgorod: $960.
Rush buy several mass transits, pollution has become a major nuisance.
Deliver a few non-demanded freights to the Russians for a total of about $1500.
Adjust the science rate to ensure we discover rocketry next turn.
RB Manhattan Project so that we can rush buy at least one nuke next turn.
City of Northern Spain founded.
Sell some granaries to fund city walls in Northern Spain since we'll soon have the pyramids. Only $225 left.
Start The Jarrow Forestation Project: Change the fortress terrain there to forest for better defense.
Pollution down to 30 after cleanup.
The Russians now have $31010.

1869 AD (3):
Greeks acquire combustion from the Vikings.
Mongols develop espionage. They want to talk and are unhappy with our troops near Issus. Good.
Rocketry discovered, recycling next since some cities are a constant source of pollution despite mass transits.
Chengdu builds Manhattan Project !!!!
No AI civ breaks a cease fire, it's bad the Spanish don't but luckily the Mongols didn't since then they could have razed the city of Northern Spain. Now it's too late since that city just completed city walls.
Moscow's Nuke also completed city walls and now everything has been set up for capturing Moscow in a turn or two.
Pop. 109,770,000 and pollution 50, much less than in the last several turns thanks to the mass transits.
The world's first bomber sinks a Russian battleship SE of Russian Tee.
We again kill everything inside Magnitogorsk but deliberately do not capture it. Some Russian units out in the field also killed. The howitzers then retreat to Russian Tee.
Rush buy a nuke in Moscow's Nuke (the backup plan if "plant nuclear device" fails) and cruise missiles in Cymru and Calgary for use in emergencies in case enemy ships block the route our transports must take from Moscow's Nuke to Russia next turn.
Pollution reduced to 10 after cleanup.
Uranium (demanded) from Chinan to Novgorod ($1608 !!).
Copper (demanded) from Ningpo to Maikop ($1080).
The Russians now have $31140 and at least two size 49 (!!) cities.

1870 AD (4):
Refuse talking to the Greeks.
Mongols break cease fire !!
Some of their ships die attacking coastal fortresses (exception: Cruiser/destroyer combo kills rifleman in Macao). However, they win all naval battles, even with damaged ships :confused: ?? They lose lots of units attacking heavily defended Blenheim Palace and we lose none. Port of Spain heavily hit.
The Russians kill a rifleman in Sna Fu but lose a huge number of cruisers and destroyers attacking Russian Tee while we lose none. The Russians discover mass production, switch to democracy and now have $31221 and a size 50 (!!!!!) city. Time to teach them a lesson...
Vikings and Greeks sign a peace treaty.
Pop. 112,870,000, pollution 50.
Recycling discovered.
Naples (Mongol) captured, $396 plundered and the senate signs yet another cease fire.
We sink about 5 Russian ships near Russian Tee.
City of Invade Russia founded and some espionage is conducted. The purpose of the city of Invade Russia is to reach the Russian continent in one turn from the city of Moscow's Nuke. Start by filling this new city with several transports of spies, howitzers, mechanized infantries, alpine troops, armor and engineers.

russian_start_1870ad.jpg


As mentioned in the previous message, Moscow turns out to be defended with 17 (!!!!) units, of which 12 are alpine troops.
Gold (demanded) from Nanking to Moscow ($1242).
Uranium (demanded) from Ulundi to Moscow ($888).
Moscow is far too heavily defended for conventional weapons. Our veteran spy plants a nuclear device in Moscow and is caught red handed following the explosion. This is great because everyone now declares war and we can start finishing off the Spanish:

nuke_red_handed.jpg


Moscow captured, $924 plundered and the pyramids and UN are ours !! Russian government escapes to Dnepropetrovsk.
Valencia (Spanish) captured, $504 plundered. The senate signs a cease fire. Mongol cruiser that was blocking Port of Spain bribed for roughly $1800. We sink a Viking cruiser and the Spanish declare war !! Seville (Spanish capital) captured, $426 plundered and the Spanish government escapes to Cordoba. Senate signs a cease fire.
Everything in Magnitogorsk killed. Dye (demanded) from Lost City to Rostov ($1212).
At last sufficient cash is available to rush buy lots of stuff. Rush buy many howitzers and mechanized infantries, transport in Moscow's Nuke and Cymru, airport in Moscow, battleship in Port of Spain, bomber in Barcelona etc. Also some demanded freight (dye, copper and uranium) for delivery next turn.
Pound Krasnoyarsk with howitzers, they then retreat into Moscow which has barracks.

1871 AD (5):
Spy in Russian Tee foils a Greek espionage attempt by a diplomat. Spy in Invade Russia foils a Russian espionage attempt by a spy. The Russian counterattack is very weak but their battleship manages to kill alpine troops in Moscow's Nuke.
Spanish acquire flight from the Vikings and the Vikings get the corporation in return.
Space Flight discovered.
Pop. 119,220,000, pollution 80, half of which is around Moscow.
The Mongols kill several of our brave engineers near Naples but lose many units attacking Blenheim Palace.
Spice (demanded) from Zimbabwe to Minsk ($576).
Mysterious nuclear blast in Dnepropetrovsk !
Mysterious nuclear blast in Minsk !
Mysterious nuclear blast in St. Petersburg !

Russia looks slightly messy at the moment:

russian_mess_1871ad.jpg


Peace treaty with the Spanish so we can demand the withdrawal of their troops next turn.
Mop up some Viking units near Jarrow.
Our bomber sinks a Greek battleship that had previously been sabotaged by a spy near GreekOverlook.
Another bomber sinks a Greek transport near Russian Tee (total of 6 units killed).
Empty Magnitogorsk and kill some units out there in the field.

I decided to stop here even though the turn is not finished, I was slightly annoyed at the start of my reign that I could move almost no units because the turn was finished but the big amount of cash largely compensated.

Notes and the game will follow in another message.
 
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