[RD] Daily Graphs and Charts

[classical_hero]

Just shows how hard it is to get accurate figures of casualties in war.

 

[Monsterzuma]

Two American nukes on Germany followed by a combined US/British invasion of France in 1946. Two more nukes in '46 and then an Allied victory.

you're assuming rather naively that anyone would think such measures are worth taking if the war wasn't 80% fought for them already. altruism just doesn't take a nation that far.

I guess there's the "logic" that WW2 got the US out of depression lends some justification, but even if that's true, an actual productive stimulus program would have had the same effect.

 

[Monsterzuma]

Spoiler :

 

[metatron]

Yes, I know, but I am talking about military deaths, not about all casualties.

0.6m is rather too low for everything other than Eastern Front taken together.

US figure of 0.18 million includes only Army ground forces and Army Air Force.

It does not include losses of US Navy, Naval Air Force and other floating things.

German 0.6 million most certainly does not include either Luftwaffe or Kriegsmarine.

===============================================

Soviet figure of 10.6 million is higher than official Soviet data say (Krivosheev).

1.

Krivosheev's analysis puts Soviet military POW dead at 1.283 million,[17] however most estimates by Western historians for Soviet prisoners of war deaths is about 3 million out of 5.7 million total POW's in German hands.[26][27] Russian researcher Vadim Erlikman puts Soviet military dead at 10.6 million;

You'd have found that if you did the least bit of scrolling downwards.

2.
The high estimate for total German military losses is 5.3m. From this one has to make all sorts of deductions (western volunteers, missing people presumed dead but actually in Argentina or God knows where, some iffyness with post-war deaths of POWs etc. etc.).
4.9m doesn't sound particularly outlandish to me.

3.
The 0.6 is not low, even if you include virtually all navy deaths and the bulk of air defense related airforce deaths.
In fact you have to do so to even make it to such a number. You've a hard time to even get significanly beyond 300k army deaths in western theatres.
Well, unless you're one of them "theorists" who believe a lot more German POWs died in western custody than actually did.
The grand total of all German Navy and Air Force confirmed deaths and missing and POW for all theatres including the Eastern Front makes it to 450k (150k Navy, 300k Air Force, roughly).
So you have to assert that roughly 70-80% are actually deaths, not POW and not missing, and to be awarded to western theatres.
Granted the proportion of actual deaths among the Navy number will be quite high and you can award virtually all of that to western theatres.
Which added to the Army deaths brings you to 450k.
Now, taking half of the Air Force number and a) calling those dead and b) ascribing their deaths to western theatres isn't exactly a recklessly low estimate. On the contrary, if anything.

4.

U.S. Combat Dead by Theater of war: Europe–Atlantic 183,588 (Army ground forces 141,088, United States Army Air Forces 36,461, and Navy/Coast Guard 6,039)

Wow, those "floating things" really do impact the total hugely.

5.
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq11-1.htm

Wow, 36 people serving in the "floating things" branches died in Dragoon.
I'd like to express that in seconds or minutes worth of Soviet combat deaths. But i'm too lazy to get my calculator.

 

[Domen]

Just shows how hard it is to get accurate figures of casualties in war.

It seems that Americans have the most detailed and the most reliable figures on their casualties.

In case of German and Soviet casualties there are huge differences between lowest and highest figures.

As for American losses:

Army (without AAF) - 230,155 (including 182,701 battle-related deaths)
Army Air Force - 88,119 (including 52,173 battle-related deaths)
Navy - 62,614 (including 37,278 battle-related deaths)
Marine Corps - 24,551 (including 20,507 battle-related deaths)

Coast Guard - 1,917 (great majority of them against Japan, IIRC)
Merchant Marine - 9,521 (estimated 4,000 of them against Japan)

Total (apart from CG and MM): 405,439 (including 292,659 battle-related deaths).

Battle-related deaths in Pacific Area (vs. Japan and its allies):

Army (without AAF) - 41,592
Marines - 20,507
AAF - 15,694
Navy - 31,485

Total: 109,278

Battle-related deaths in Atlantic Area (vs. Germany, Italy and their allies):

Army (without AAF) - 141,088
Marines - 0
AAF - 36,461
Navy - 5,793

Total: 183,342

The missing one (a very small number) are battle-related deaths in unknown area.

==============================================

When it comes to non-battle deaths - I found figures for Army & Army Air Force together:

Army (including AAF) - 83,400 non-battle deaths:

Atlantic Area - 25,176
Pacific Area - 16,289
CONUS - 39,898
Enroute & Unknown - 2,037

==============================================

Battle-related deaths in Pacific Area (vs. Japan and its allies):

Army (without AAF) - 41,592
Marines - 20,507

(...)

Battle-related deaths in Atlantic Area (vs. Germany, Italy and their allies):

Army (without AAF) - 141,088
Marines - 0

And here is a breakdown of these numbers above by more precise areas:

BTW - Italy includes Sardinia and Sicily, while France includes Corsica.

Iwo Jima had the highest density of fallen Americans per 1 km2.

 

[Domen]

Coast Guard - 1,917 (great majority of them against Japan, IIRC)

and Navy/Coast Guard 6,039

Battle-related deaths in Atlantic Area (vs. Germany, Italy and their allies):

(...)

Navy - 5,793

OK - so there were 246 (6039 - 5793) Coast Guard deaths in Atlantic Area.

 

[Domen]

3.
The 0.6 is not low, even if you include virtually all navy deaths and the bulk of air defense related airforce deaths.
In fact you have to do so to even make it to such a number. You've a hard time to even get significanly beyond 300k army deaths in western theatres.
Well, unless you're one of them "theorists" who believe a lot more German POWs died in western custody than actually did.
The grand total of all German Navy and Air Force confirmed deaths and missing and POW for all theatres including the Eastern Front makes it to 450k (150k Navy, 300k Air Force, roughly).

Here they estimated total German losses as 5.3 million - including 0.8 million (which is much higher than 0.6) not on the Eastern Front:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=140220

Western Front/(6 june 1944 and before):
16.000 were the KIA in Poland; 5.500 the KIA in Norway; 60.000 were KIA in Holland, Belgium, France and the airbattle over Britain. 1500 KIA in Greece, 4.000 KIA on Crete; 16.000 were KIA in North Africa (mainly Tunesia); 14.000 fell in Yugoslavia against the Partizans; the air war over Germany cost the Germans 10.000 day and night fighter pilots and crews (till summer 44); the losses on the oceans by the KM about 50.000 men in the U-Boat arm and surface units (loss of Bismarck and Scharnhorst) and 25.000 other army personell. The occupation of Europe & bombardments did cost another 25.000 men. The defense of Sicilia: 7.500 KIA; southern Italy up to Cassino a futher 7.500 KIA. Cassino and Anzio both at least 50.000. Anti Partizan fights in Greece and counterattacks against the Dodecanese Islands: 2500 KIA.

Western Front/(6 june 1944 and thereafter):
More than 60.000 died in Italy after the summer, 42.000 died in Yugoslavia (Serbia and upwards; about 135.000 fell in France (80.000 in Normandy alone); 30.000 in Holland, 25.000 in Belgium; at least 75.000 in West-Germany; in the air about 50% of all pilots were killed: 5000 pilots and at sea at least 35.000 died. Also fell many thousands of flak-gunners, hitleryouth, polizei and Volkssturm. Greece numbers? Notorious pocket battles: Falaise; Belgrado, the Ruhr.

For the West & South the number is 800.000 soldiers.

So I miss 200.000 soldiers (KIA) to be accounted for. Anybody having an idea???
Perhaps the total number of German KIA & MIA is not 5,3 million but 5,1 million.

Not that it changes the overall picture, but 16.000 dead for campaign in Poland in September 1939 is a very low estimate.

The actual reported number of dead for Heer only (Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine and SS not included) during the Polish campaign was 17163.

But reported numbers of deaths tended to be much lower than real numbers of deaths. Here is a comparison of reported losses:

Numbers for losses in various areas and campaigns refer to Heer only. Numbers for Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine are from entire period.

There is also similar data (from the same report dated 30.11.1944) with breakdown of Army losses by each month:

This chart above includes only Army (Heer) reported deaths, but also reported deaths to accidents and diseases - not just combat deaths.

This is why there are so many deaths (several hundred each month) during the "Phoney War" period.

Deaths during the "Phoney War" period are in vast majority non-combat deaths, as well as some wounded soldiers who died of wounds late.

 

[Domen]

You've a hard time to even get significanly beyond 300k army deaths in western theatres.

Depends if you go by real deaths or by reported deaths.

For example, Germans initially reported only 23,000 dead in the Normandy Campaign (it doesn't include those reported as missing).

But there are some 80,000 (IIRC) graves of 1944 fallen German soldiers in cemeteries across Normandy.

Of course many dead were reported as missing, many were also reported as wounded and later died, etc.

So in general it is hard to establish accurate losses, especially if your country, reporting system, all institutions, collapsed. There are practically no reliable numbers regarding German losses during the last 6 months (due to chaos which caused that German reporting system ceased to work properly late in 1944).

And probably the last 6 months were the most devastating months for Germans, both on Eastern and Western Fronts.

==================================

About losses in Normandy:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=165672&p=1509781&hilit=graves#p1509733

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=8698

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=176047&p=1570380&hilit=Normandy#p1567328

==================================

Volksbund have quite accurate data on German war dead, but their data (at least in online databases) is also incomplete:

http://www.fallenheroesphotos.org/German-(Volksbund)-War-Graves-Commission

Their database is very incomplete when it comes to WW1 dead (due to some destruction of their archives during WW2).

But it is also incomplete (at least what they have online) to some extent when it comes to WW2 dead.

Volksbund main website: http://www.volksbund.de/

In English about Volksbund: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_War_Graves_Commission

=============================================

Here a name list of 904 + 114 = 1018 (so far, but the list is being updated) German officers KIA in the Polish campaign in 1939:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=120220&start=1290

The last update was in April 2014, as I can see in OP of that thread (where the list itself can be found):

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=120220&start=0

This list is based on Volksbund Graves database, but also on many other sources. It expanded from 565 (07.01.2009) to 1018 (06.04.2014) officers.

Number of officers listed there already exceeds the reported (from German official casualty reports) number of officer deaths in Poland 1939.

So it shows that casualty reports often to some exent underestimate casualties. Especially initial reports.

 

[Domen]

Metatron,

You've a hard time to even get significanly beyond 300k army deaths in western theatres.

Mhmmm - Ok, in western theatres and if we count only combat deaths, then you are right.

But don't forget for example about Yugoslavia, where they lost at least several dozen thousand dead to partisans.

I was talking about losses "everywhere except for the Eastern Front" and all kinds of deaths.

In Yugoslavia probably some thousands also died in captivity, because I don't think that Yugoslavian partisan treated POWs generously.

 

[metatron]

So we can summarise:
1. I was correct.
2. The graph is largely correct.
3. You were - with your initial objection - wrong, or rather what scientists call "very wrong", arguably as a result of bias.

Wonderful. This was easier than i expected.

Mhmmm - Ok, in western theatres and if we count only combat deaths, then you are right.

But don't forget for example about Yugoslavia, where they lost at least several dozen thousand dead to partisans.

I was talking about losses "everywhere except for the Eastern Front" and all kinds of deaths.

- Yes. Not "if". I am.
- No (unless you have a very liberal standard for "several dozen thousand").
- Yes, that's what we were both talking about since the start of this "debate" (using the term generously here).

 

[Domen]

3. You were - with your initial objection - wrong, or rather what scientists call "very wrong"

But since the beginning I wrote "depends what do you call Western Front".

BTW - here about French losses:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=112&t=171126

2. The graph is largely correct.

Well I am not sure, why the graph shows no Allied losses in 1940 at all. For example.

The graph also does not show losses of Polish Forces in the West (I assume they are included in British).

Regarding Krivosheev, you quoted the following passage:

Krivosheev's analysis puts Soviet military POW dead at 1.283 million,[17] however most estimates by Western historians for Soviet prisoners of war deaths is about 3 million out of 5.7 million total POW's in German hands.[26][27] Russian researcher Vadim Erlikman puts Soviet military dead at 10.6 million;

Erlikman's higher figure than Krivosheev's figure results from Erlikman assuming a much higher mortality ratio among POWs than Krivosheev.

So 10.6 million might be true, if we assume that mortality among POWs was much higher.

However, I'm not sure how does it show "even higher combat efficiency" of Axis forces. After all, murdering POWs is not that difficult.

==================================================

Regarding Axis POWs in Soviet captivity.

Excluding Japanese POWs, total number of Axis POWs reported captured by the Soviets in 1941 - 1945 was 4,063,071.

Of those 4,063,071, only 3,282,930 were reported being delivered to Ministry of Internal Affairs' POW camps (so 780,141 were not delivered).

Of those delivered to POW camp of Ministry of Internal Affairs (MOI) - 497,275 died until 01.06.1947, while 1,521,263 left those camps by then.

There were also deaths among those never delivered to MOI's camps and those who stayed there after 01.06.1947 (1,264,392).

Axis POWs reported captured by the Soviets (4,063,071):

1941 - 10,602
1942 - 178,826
1943 - 442,623
1944 - 1,204,945
1945 - 2,226,075

Axis POWs reported delivered to MOI's camps (3,282,930):

1941 - 9,147
1942 - 79,004
1943 - 176,186
1944 - 704,861
1945 - 2,280,953
1946 - 32,779

Axis POW's delivered to MOI's camps and deaths until 01.06.1947:

German Army - 2,548,461 (of them 369,725 died)
Hungarian Army - 499,517 (of them 49,045 died)
Romanian Army - 183,203 (of them 50,366 died)
Italian Army - 48,943 (of them 27,680 died)
Finnish Army - 2,348 (of them 402 died)
Spanish Division - 458 (of them 57 died)

Axis POWs who stayed in MOI's camps after 01.06.1947:

German Army: 1,030,328
Hungarian Army: 197,792
Romanian Army: 35,915
Italian Army: 28
Finnish Army: 5
Spanish Division: 324

 

[metatron]

Was I ??? No - since the beginning I wrote "depends what do you call Western Front".

I have explained to you, rather patiently that the inclusion you are doubting here has in fact very likely been made.

However, I'm not sure how does it show "even higher combat efficiency" of Axis forces. After all, murdering POWs is not that difficult.

Sure. No contradiction though.

Well I am not sure, why the graph shows no Allied losses in 1940 at all. For example.

Given the data i'd file this a simple graphics mishap.
I'd guess that the '39 bar is supposed to be in '40.

Fair objection but hardly a basis for you to doubt the general validity of the graph. Except as an indicator for whoever made it being derpy with MS paint.

 

[Domen]

Fair objection but hardly a basis for you to doubt the general vailidity of the graph.

The general validity - if we are not going into details - is more or less OK, I agree.

BTW - it is interesting that no Axis Slovakian POWs in Soviet hands were delivered to MOI's camps (see the data I posted above).

I mean, surely they did capture some POWs from the Slovakian Army. But no of them were delivered to MOI's camps.

===========================================

Soviet prisoners of war deaths is about 3 million out of 5.7 million total POW's in German hands.[26][27]

Germans had some problems with reporting the number of Soviet POWs.

They initially overestimated (or rather: over-reported) the number of POWs by over 0.5 million, and later had to adjust it.

Number of Soviet POWs reported in each month by OKH (Army High Command):

June 1941 - 112,784
July 1941 - 701,246 (incl. 323 thousand in Bialystok-Minsk "pocket" and 110 thousand in Uman "pocket")
August 1941 - 698,580 (incl. 348 thousand in Smolensk-Orsha "pocket" and 50 thousand in Gomel "pocket")
September 1941 - 989,203 (incl. 665 thousand in Kiev-Konotop "pocket")
October 1941 - 1,037,778 (incl. 662 thousand in Viazma-Briansk "pocket" and 100 thousand in Melitopol-Berdyansk "pocket")
November 1941 - 291,934 (incl. 100 thousand in Kerch Peninsula of Crimea)
December 1941 - 75,440

Total in this period (summ of monthly reports): 3,906,965

But in December, the number was adjusted by 540 thousand down, due to previous "mistakes in reporting".

POWs reported for June - December 1941 after adjusting: 3,367,206

Another example which shows what kind of mistakes (or manipulations? - see below) can happen in military reports.

But maybe they "adjusted" that number to hide the fact that already 540,000 POWs had been killed? Who knows.

If this is true, then in such case 3.9 million would be the real number of POWs taken in 1941.

I'd guess that the '39 bar is supposed to be in '40.

Or maybe they included entire period 1939 - 1942 in one bar - '39 bar ???

 

[Cutlass]

Spoiler :

I like this one. Though it took me a minute to figure it all out.

 

[Domen]

2. The graph is largely correct.

If 0.6 million is correct for the Western Front (instead of 0.8 - 1), then I guess this isn't how daily routine for Allied forces on the Western Front looked like:


Link to video.

In that particular battle ("Band of Brothers" series is based on facts), company E had 1 dead and 22 injured; Germans 50 dead, 100 wounded, 11 POWs.

So ratio of dead Americans to dead Germans in that particular combat was 1 to 50. But it seems that the Western Front wasn't like that in general.

 

[gay_Aleks]

I doubt that, unless Simo Hayha made a cameo in Normandy. And I don't think he'd enjoy the beaches.

But hey, things do happen.

 

[peter grimes]

Moderator Action: No more WW2 posts, please. We'll split them off into their own thread if it continues
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Domen]

But when it comes to losses on the Eastern Front:

We may as well have a graph on the matter (again), and finally move on:

Already quoted before user Bergveen gives the same number (4.3 million) for German deaths, but higher numbers for deaths of other Axis states:

Germans (WH/LW/KM/SS/Todt) lost - 4.270.700 men as KIA, MIA, died of wounds, non-combat dead, died as POW on EF.
Romanians lost 300.000 men as KIA, MIA, died of wounds, non-combat dead, died as POW on EF.
Hungarians lost 350.055 men as KIA, MIA, died of wounds, non-combat dead, died as POW on EF.
Italians lost 71.593 men as KIA, MIA, died of wounds, non-combat dead, died as POW on EF.
Finns lost 82.403 men as KIA, MIA, died of wounds, non-combat dead, died as POW on EF.
Slovaks lost 1.865 men as KIA, MIA, died of wounds, non-combat dead, died as POW on EF.
Demographical losses of armies of Romania,Hungary,Italy,Finnland,Slovakia - 806.000 men as KIA, MIA, died of wounds, non-combat dead, died as POW on EF.
(G.Krivosheev "Russia and USSR in wars of XX century.Losses of Armed Forces.Statistical Research.").

BTW - here strength of Romanian forces on the Eastern Front (but only until June 1943, no data regarding 2nd half of 1943 and 1944):

Also Axis Bulgaria lost over 10,000 dead, Spanish Division (volunteers) about 4,000 dead, Walloon volunteers about 2,500 dead.

==================================

Edit:

Sorry, I was writing this post before Peter Grimes replied.

But yeah, I think we can split them to another thread (in World History subforum).

 

[Borachio]

Link to video.

Crazy. Totally crazy.

 

[Domen]

This is crazy. This... is... AMBUSH !!!

Well, maybe "ambush" is a wrong word (ambush is usually defensive, and they were attacking).

But they got them by surprise.