[BTS] DAR - Prince - Pangea - Normal - Default settings

[SittinDown]

Nice improvement!

• With an EXP leader, I often whip the granary as soon as the city is size 2.
• It's probably time to let your capital grow, work some cottages, and start running some scientists for the GS. You don't have any good commerce tiles, so cottaging the FP's is probably your best bet. You've got 8 good cottage tiles in the capital, which is plenty, and you placed your cities well enough that the other cities can help work the cottages if needed.
• A common route to take with the GS is to let the GS bulb Philosophy, so you need to grab Code of Laws and Meditation. This route is nice, because it opens up Caste System and Pacifism, which work really well together for making more and more Great People. It also takes you down the path for more GS's and towards Liberalism. You can use that to get early curiassers, or to get early cannons, and stomp the world. Alternatively, you don't have Fishing, which means you could bulb Engineering, and have some fun with Trebuchets.
• ...but, first things first, where to settle that next city. I don't see a whole lot I like here. The stone site has no food, but I suppose you could use that city as a helper for the cottages for the capital. At least it'll be connected to your trade network right away, since it's on your main river. Other options are that green sheep to the NW.
• I'd probably only settle one more city and then start working on taking out William. Now that you have writing, you should open borders with him and scout out his land.

 

[cseanny]

I'd probably only settle one more city and then start working on taking out William. Now that you have writing, you should open borders with him and scout out his land.

On Prince I'd imagine opening up with 3-4 warriors and attack Willem immediately (you'd still go worker 1st). At this level the AI's have no more than 1 warrior defending early. On that note this makes AH my 1st tech of choice, thus allowing one to slightly grow while still producing warriors faster. Definitely improve the Sheep followed by a mine to get out those early warriors faster. After 3rd or 4th warrior you could start 1st Settler.

After AH is in find horse and make good use of chariots and then later HAs (think early war!) Even when I'm playing Deity/Immortal I'm not a big fan of peacefully settling too many cities before you start your wars, even if you have lot's of land. Just saying, it's a trap to think peacefully expanding to all your land is the best opening. In most circumstances it usually just slows down your victory date.

I know the OP is trying to learn the nuances of the game (which is good lol!) but at some point you're going to start a war anyways so you might as well start it at a point in time in the game which will gain you the best snowball potential; earlier rather than later.

 

[diegoami]

Well, to be honest, I do not like to rush, it is a house rule. That's also because the AI never rushes.
I would rather go to war with a reason, against the first civilization who blocks my expansion or that dislikes me.
In this game it might be Cartago, if they start founding cities close to me.

Anyway, it seems at last that I have managed a decent start, so to the next moves:

• I am actually building TWO settlers, in Yas and Har, that I would whip at the first occasion, so I am planning to build two towns and then start churning out units.
• Fourth town will be 2S of stone. It will expand soon enough because of Sury's trait, it will be next to a river and connected to the capital and once I will have cleared some jungle, it will not have food problems
• About the fifth town I am not sure, I was thinking going north to the hill SW of cow, so I could envelope in time horse, wine and sugar. It would seem a waste not to use that settler.
  
• I understand that in my first three towns I need to build axemen asap, should I build barracks first ? I would build barracks in all of them before churning out units .
• Worker #1 would go on chopping near Yas and then move on to support the fourth town,
• Worker #2 would build cottages near Har and possibly then move to the fifth town,
• Worker #3 will develop rice 1E2N of Ang and then chop
  
• After building a decent force of axemen a couple of workers more would not hurt.
• I would prioritize Alphabet, Currency, Construction (for the elephant UU) and Iron Working (for swordsmen and clearing jungle!)

Spoiler 1520 BC R2 :

 

[SittinDown]

and once I will have cleared some jungle, it will not have food problems

• see for yourself - pay attention to how much your total maintenance costs change after you settle the city, and consider how long it takes that stone-site to develop, and assess if it was worth it. that city will probably cost you several gold per turn, and you don't have currency or any cottages yet, so you may run into trouble with science quickly. (also, I'd probably go 1 S of the stone, not 2 S. hate to use up a green river tile when I can settle on a brown one). Your 5th city will probably bankrupt you since you have no special commerce tiles and didn't start any cottages yet, until you get currency. Conquest side-steps this issue, because taking a city will get you 100+ gold, which buys you plenty of time to tech currency.
• ....you don't have IW yet. chopping jungles is really inefficient and should only be done to grab critical resources. that city will not 'starve', but it doesn't have anything better than 3 food tiles once you build farms, which means it will develop quite slowly. Stone by itself just isn't worth that much.

• I'd prioritize getting the horse site over the brown-cow. A single 3-food tile city will not help you too much, and the north will not be connected to your trade network, so you won't get auto-trade routes. (+1-2 gpt).

• Keep in mind, William's land will be better than anything else you can see ...plus it'll come with whatever stuff his workers have done to it. (capital sites are always scripted to have more resources than other areas).

• Barracks aren't needed for the first attack. Just get about 6 axes together, and go straight for the capital. What you don't want is the AI to build 2 archers, or worse, hook up copper and start building axes / spears. William has a Holy city, so it's going to have 40+ cultural defense at this point. Maybe build 1 barracks if you want, so you can promote a few units to City Raider 1 just to bust the best defender. (Also if you don't know - the best axe whip is to get 4 hammers into the axe, and 2-pop whip it from 4-2, so you get 2 axes in 2 turns).

 

[diegoami]

Ok, makes sense. I would still like to settle at least one city - 1 SE of stone then ? It actually looks good too. I would research masonry right after alphabet, and then currency. I would postpone the fifth city until I get currency, and in the meantime build axemen.
But why does everybody and their cousins want me to take on the Dutch, that I haven't met in this run yet ? What is so special about them ?

 

[Swordnboard]

But why does everybody and their cousins want me to take on the Dutch, that I haven't met in this run yet ? What is so special about them ?

They mean Hannibal probably. The orange color seems to have confused some people. Don't think the dutch are in your game, but the Carthaginians are quite nearby, making them a strong target.

 

[Gumbolt]

Yes I mean't Hannibal. I forgot they were the same colour.

 

[SittinDown]

They mean Hannibal probably.

Yes. Sorry, assumed that was the Dutch.

 

[diegoami]

makes more sense then.
On to year 1000 BC - saved games for this run are here.
I am not really proud about that, but I went back to a slightly older save where I was producing only one settler - 1640 BC that is.
When I was still finishing libraries in Har and Ang and was about to build a settler in Yas.

Spoiler 1640 BC :

Well, it turned out (after a save scum) that by the time iron goes online, I would have pretty much managed to build barracks in Yas, Har and Ang. If I had started producing warriors before that, production would have been switched to spearmen when iron goes online (need iron for those too?), that is not the unit I wanted to build. So I did build three barracks after all, does not seem to be that bad move.

Spoiler 1400 BC :

In 1320, a fourth town is founded, Angor Wat, that now means I cannot use the shortcut "Ang" any longer. So I will call those towns ATho and AWat respectedly. Meanwhile I am dealing with unhappyness because of whipping in Har and ATho and to prevent growth, I move citizens from the fields to the library - temporarily until unhappyness goes away. A worker is improving rice in ATho.

Spoiler 1320 BC :

By 1150, Yas, Har and ATho are at last producing Axemen, while AWat is producing a granary that will be soon whipped out. Workers are now building cottages on plains near Yas or chopping near ATho.
The first axemen have been produced but are not sure what to do...

Spoiler 1150 BC :

Still producing axemen in 1000, but throwing a spearman in the mix because Carthago may have chariots.
Planning an additional worker in AWat that I will soon chop, because stone must go online asap.
I notice that now I am broke and had to reduce research to 50% - though this is not taking a toll on technology because of the libraries.

Spoiler 1000 BC :

Thanks to open borders, a warrior is exploring Chartago's terrytory, while other three are fogbusting. There are now five axemen that are spread on patrolling duties. The scout is checking Persia's territory at the south. There is a barbarian town at the west.

Spoiler 1000 BC A :

Good to know that I am leading in most statistics - most importantly in the amount of soldiers.

Spoiler 1000 BC D :

I got Mysticism and Masonry through technology trading in exchange for Animal Husbandry. Currently researching Currency. Leaders were interested also in giving me other minor technologies in exchange for Writing, but so far I passed.

Spoiler 1000 BC T :

As Carthago is expanding west, it will be my target. The plan is obviously to gather my promoted axemen that I am producing in Yas, Har and ATho and march towards Carthago. Not sure if I should take or raze their towns - I am used to play with "no razing", that makes you fight limited wars. Moreover, is it worth to invest in spionage points and spy to know more about Carthago's plans?
It might also be that I am late for a rush and I should wait for elephants and catapults - just need to research construction - btw what else to research ?
I am inclined not to make AWat take part into the war effort, as it has no barracks, and instead build wonders there that will be probably be transformed into gold. On the other hand, some units will be needed at home as well, as barbarians still roam the countryside.
Workers should build cottages, chop and also is it about time to start building roads? A great scientist will be also be born soon, not sure what to do with him - I have not decided on a "science" city, although the capital would seem an obvious choice. Or should I use the lightbulb ?

 

[Swordnboard]

Not sure if I should take or raze their towns

Capture, almost always. Unless a city is horribly placed (for example, on top of a gold resource or placed to make multiple resources impossible to use), it is almost always worth keeping. You'll just have to plan on building enough workers to make the cities you take pay for themselves.

Moreover, is it worth to invest in spionage points and spy to know more about Carthago's plans?

Not really. You are already scouting out his territory, which is good. Be sure to take stock of how many units there are, which cities have walls or high cultural defenses, and other such details. You can also glean information on what the AI is constructing in each of its cities without spending any espionage points at all. On the espionage screen, when looking at a certain city, take (Sabotage Production cost * 20 / Poison Water cost), and that is the amount of hammers the AI has invested into whatever they are currently building.

Currency and construction are both good techs to research. You'll also need Horseback Riding to attack with elephants, though that can probably wait until after the other two.

One more comment is that Angkor Wat is a rather poor city placement, as it has no food resource. You would be better served settling up by the grassland sheep northwest of Yasodharapura.

 

[diegoami]

Thanks for the advice Swordnboard. Actually, I founded Angor Wat near the stone following the advice of lymond. It is supposed to be a helper town, helping with cottages, and a production center where I could also fail wonders.
That's why I think it would be not that bad if it there are there more shields than food there.

 

[Gumbolt]

You are building lots of units. To what end? If you didn't plan to go to war then you should not be building all these axes. If you planned to build city guards then not hooking up copper was right move. Research vs building units?

I would be focusing on food in cities for growth. You then could of 2 pop whipped a worker somewhere. Growing slowly to size 4 in cities is painful. You are probaly 1-2 workers short here.
Building workers at size 1 is not always optimal when you can 2 pop whip them. This far in with whip it is just as fast as it completes in 3 turns.

Capital with food could grow to size 6 and whip a settler. Currently 10 turns growth. You have another city that can finish a GS sooner. Capital could use 1-2 more cottages.

Expansion. I would always keep expanding. Don't get stuck at 4 cities. On lower levels copying the Ai growth is not strong play. I am torn on where the 5th city will go. Likely north of the capital. Cow/Sheep?

Exploring. The barbs on prince level are not that bad. you can keep exploring with some of these units.

Trading writing for other techs? Might as well grab archery and other tech.

So what is the plan here? If you plan to rush an Ai you will need 4-5 more axes. You still have land to expand into.
If you plan to build mids you would need more workers. Not sure it's needed as there are a few happiness resources about if you scout properly. Ivory being one. Plus you would need

Open borders with all AI? Any reason you have not?

 

[Gumbolt]

Up to 1400bc. Settler for 6th city ready to move out.

I had to stop myself from working stealing here.

Seeing AI with just warrior defences and not attacking was also tough. Would be so easy to axe rush here early on with 3-4 axes against warriors.

 

[Gumbolt]

Just for fun up to 425bc.11 cities.

Note how my science rate is at 0% as I manage my economy. Much better to do 0 or 100% vs 40-60%. Unless you can speed up an important tech. E.g 1 turn left rather than 2 turns. Did that with currency.

I have not worker stolen here early on. Probably could of rolled over a lot of map with axes if I had gone 2 cities at start.

I have rexxed to 8 cities and have captured 3 cities with 1 more city to be built. Maybe I should of beelined alphabet instead of calendar.

My economy was losing money at 0% science for 1-2 turns. This might not of worked on immortal with higher costs. On immortal level trading for alphabet would of come much sooner.

Capital is running 6-7 cottages. Should of converted the 2 farms to cottages sooner. Had some unhappiness issues in capitals but various happiness resources have fixed this. Built academy in capital. At 100% science I am 174 beakers a turn.

 

[Gumbolt]

At 1000bc I had 6 cities. With another settler 4 turns off. My capital was working 5 cottages. At 100% science I was at 55 beakers a turn. 10 more than your save.

I think you could easily take out Carthage with 9 or so axes.

I think you reached 3-4 cities and stopped expanding. It's okay tp chop out a settler at size 1-2 if needed. I did whip one from my capital. Like I said I am not a fan of farming too many flood plains unless you are missing a 5-6F resource at start.

 

[diegoami]

Hi Gumboldt, thank you for sharing the saves and the tips - there is definitely a lot to learn there!
This in-your-face approach is not easy for me to grasp, but I see that it has a high reward - if you know what you are doing.
I actually played on yesterday night and I will post the result - seems that I am doing well, although I am nowhere that dominant.

 

[Gumbolt]

Just remember to play the map and don't compare your expansion to the AI. The Ai on prince are very slow to expand. Prince can still be fun. I have Romans plotting on my save. I am likely the only real target unless they plan to cross entire map for Mansa or someone else.

I will probably play this on for HA and use of our UU.

 

[diegoami]

I will remember it ! Anyway, this was my progress. Saved games here.
By 900 BC, my scout warrior has located the capital of Carthago, that seems light defended. Two archers and no wall yet. So even if I have still room to expand, rather than build a fifth town, I decide to prepare for an attack on Carthago.
In the mean time I have open borders with everybody.

Spoiler 900 BC :

By 675 AC, my stack is on the east border preparing to declare war and march into Carthago's territory.
It is made of 8 axemen and 2 spearmen, while 3 other axemen are still in the domestic territory waiting to be replaced by archers and protecting from barbarians (they are still there, one will soon plunder the sheep north of Yas - haven't fogbusted well lately).
A spy is moving towards Carthago to monitor the situation there. Pyramids are buing built in AWat - expecting to get some money when we fail.
In the mean time we locate a Carthaginean town closer to the border. Carthago regrettably by now has walls, but is still garrisoned by two archers. Knowing the AI, by the time we get there they are bound to be more units created by whipping.
By this time I have built an academy in the capital. I have also get several "minor" technologies from the other civilization in exchange for writing.

Spoiler 675 BC :

So we choose at first the easy way - we take the town closer to us first. We figure we will beeline to Construction and build soon catapults to take our enemy's capital.

Spoiler 600 BC :

Spoiler Alternative 575 BC :

Later on, I reloaded from this point and tried marching with the 8 axemen to the capital - and took it losing 3 axemen out of 8.

In the main "line", It is only by 350 BC that we decide to march on Carthago. The army is made of 10 Axemen, 3 catapults and 2 spearmen, but the enemy by now is defending with 2 archers, 1 axemen and 3 swordsmen.

Spoiler 350 BC :

By the time we are in front the capital with the full stack, in 200 BC, the defense has increased to 2 archers, 2 axemen and 5 swordsmen! There is no way we would be able to take that town.
So we retreat back to the closest town and we actually even end up losing a couple of catapults to Carthago's sorties.
Funnily enough, by now we have actually managed to build the Pyramids and we have switched to Representation, as we have a lot of specialists. The Jewish religion has also spread into our territory and we have switched to Organized religion.

Spoiler 200 BC :

By 75 BC, we are licking our wounds. We are now producing elephants, as we have researched horseback riding. Even if our economy is struggling, we decide to prepare for one more attack. We have also managed to raid with an woodman axemen into enemy territory and plunder the iron mine (as far as I know Carthago has no copper).
The enemy has actually been helping us spreading his troops too thin with sorties and attacking our retreating troops with unfavourable odds.
In the mean time, we are converting our towns to the Jewish religion thanks to the missionaries that we are producing in AWat. We do not manage to fail building wonders - we build even the Big Wall!

Spoiler 75 BC :

A second attempt is made to take Carthago in 50 AD. This time the capital is lightly guarded. Just two archers this time. In the mean time, I got a great general, that I made join the main army.

Spoiler 50 AD :

In 75 AD, Carthago's capital falls. Considering that the two other Carthago's towns are on hills and farther from my capital, that I do have still room to expand in my core territory, and there are other enemys to think about, such as the Persians and the Sumerians, who are encroaching and have actually interesting resources - I would tend to sue for peace now.
In the mean time, I have built a second academy in Har. I have researched calendar, so I can connect a couple of luxuries: die, sugar and incense.
Apart from the units that I still queued, I am still struggling economically, therefore I am building a market in Yas and another "failing" wonder in AWat. Not sure what to build next and if it would be ok to build other towns consider how I am doing economically.
However, I would hope that when Carthago goes online it would help me with economy.

Spoiler 75 AD :

Technologically I am not sure what path to take, I am researching code of laws to build tribunals, also to try and pay less upkeep. One source of income in fact has also been selling "outdated" technologies, as the other civilization have seldom something interesting to offer (exceptions were Iron Working and Monotheism).

Spoiler 75 AD :

As for workers, I have been trying to make towns specialize. Apart from connecting resources, chopping, building roads and mines, I am slowly starting to build cottages on grassland near rivers. It seems to me that I am going more towards a "specialist" economy and maybe I should just do food, considering also that I have representation and I would also aim towards Caste System and Pacifism.

Spoiler 75 AD :

 

[Gumbolt]

Are you whipping your units here? I don't see much whip unhappiness here.

Up to 150ad for me and planning final wars. Hope to vassel the final 2 AI quickly if possible.

 

[lymond]

Sorry, been out o' commission for some days, and having to catch up. I would like to address an earlier point Sword brought up about the stone city. Based on the available scouting, the stone city was the right play. Helper cities don't always have access to immediate food. The point is you settled 3 cities in close proximity to Yas that can help grow cottages. Based on what was seen at the time, there were really no other urgent cities to grab with food. Stone city regardless is a rather productive city on its own with the stone itself, which provides a useful resource to either build an important wonder, or fail gold them. It can share farm FPs (and later cottaged) to grow. Also secures a happy resources for later fwiw. After IW at some point it can get its own farms, so the city will be able to grow quite a bit. Bottom line is that you settled 3 very productive cities near your cap fast that can also help the cap become a good Bureau cap. Also, it should be noted that most of the land to the S is jungle, although there was a decent horse/corn spot to the SE I grabbed in my game.

With that said, the fight with Dutch Hanny is good. Really though with an Axe only rush - and rush really is not the right term here, I would have focused on that earlier. They will be less successful on higher levels, but you can get by with a circa 500AD fight here. Although if he has metals it will you could hit a slog here. Alternative, would continue to focus on expansion, grabbing a few outlying spots like cow/iron to the north, horse/corn to the S, and maybe even the jungle ivory spot due south, while moving toward Construction/HBR for some Balista/pult action which you could turn into fighting on two fronts with confidence.

Basically any food resource in vicinity of your empire should be grabbed sooner than later, like sheep to NW and cow/iron to N, which is quite productive with those two tiles alone.

At a quick glance above DA, I'm confused as to why you are building so many Archers. That is a waste.