D'Artagnan01: Low-level Training Day

[Bede]

BW and WC are nice, but the AI values them way more than it values writing. In fact, they're the two most expensive AA techs. Pull out some gpt, and the AI might trade them.

Wrong!

Writing has a beaker cost of >200. Warrior Code and Bronze Working together don't add up to a beaker cost of 160. You should in fact be able to get both for the value of Writing even with the Emperor trade premiums.

And at this stage of the game paying gpt for anything other than luxuries is folly.

It is true that the AI will prioritize Warrior Code and Bronze Working as they allow troop training but that does not make them more costly.

If I had C3C running I could provide a demonstration.

@choxorn, CRPSuite is at least three different .exe files. The one you want to use is called CRpMapStat. The others are less useful for game purposes but very nice for post game analysis.

.Net is Microsoft's implementation of C++ that allows Windoz machines to run C++ programs without translation into Visual Basic. It does not, as far as I know, introduce any security holes or other bad stuff.

 

[Ansar]

BW and WC are nice, but the AI values them way more than it values writing. In fact, they're the two most expensive AA techs. Pull out some gpt, and the AI might trade them.

Actually, this is not true at all. BW is the cheapest AA tech, next to pottery. Writing guarantess you BW + WC + something else, definetily. I like the idea of trading Writing, but we gotta do it wisely, and see what the best offers are, right now, I say I like the wheel because knowing resources is always nice. We could build temples and after expansion sell them... , but that is up to the team, these are just my suggestions...

Also, is there any way we can get BW besides by Writing? I would like to know when our neighbors get Iron Working, so we can have a share on it too.

EDIT: x-post with TGOM.

 

[Bede]

We could build temples and after expansion sell them... , but that is up to the team, these are just my suggestions...

Also, is there any way we can get BW besides by Writing? I would like to know when our neighbors get Iron Working, so we can have a share on it too.

EDIT: x-post with TGOM.

Sorry to jump on your "good catch", Ansar. But don't go getting froggy on me here. If you look at the shield cost one temple for a non-religious nation is 2.5 settlers. Why not use a knight's move settlement pattern and get three towns for the same cost working that ground much earlier than if one town had to grow into it?

The early to mid game is not about claiming the most ground, it is about getting the best yields from the ground you control. That is where the human players get the upper hand over the AI production discounts.

 

[CommandoBob]

The early to mid game is not about claiming the most ground, it is about getting the best yields from the ground you control.

That says a mouthful! (and a lightbulb goes off inside the mind of CommandoBob).

So how do 'best yields', 'micro-managing cities' and 'city governors' interrelate? I've picked up that there are times the city govenors do a good job (relating to settler pumps, mostly) but recall other posts where the city governor is derided. And related to this, how should the city governors be 'set'?

 

[Ansar]

The early to mid game is not about claiming the most ground, it is about getting the best yields from the ground you control. That is where the human players get the upper hand over the AI production discounts.

And that is why im in this SG. Im too used to the easiness of building temples and such kid stuff.

Isnt CxxxC best for land grabbing since borders connect?

 

[Bede]

City governors:

Rule #1 City governors should never be active.
Rule #2 The city governor preference needs to be set to production so that when growth occurs the new citizen is working the highest shield field available.

Rule #2 has to do with the game mechanics of production, growth and commerce. I do not have all the details but I think the values of growth/production/commerce are caclulated in that order during the interturn processing. So when you are running a settler farm you want the growth citizen to be assigned to the highest shield field but you frequently go into the city screen on your turn and move him to a high food field. You will get the shield added to the bin on the interturn, however.

Mocromanagement is a huge topic and just one aspect of it will fill whole pages if explored in detail. The guiding principle is simply stated, however:

All citizens must work the most powerful fields available to them

What that requires in practice is that every town that has experienced growth on the interturn must be examined and citizens reassigned as needed.

The tricky part is that the definition of "most powerful" changes as the game progresses. And the impact of corruption and waste changes the relationships of working citizens and specialists.

Much more will be said about this later.

 

[Bede]

As a general rule, and like all general rules subject to exceptions, an effective settlement pattern is to count three fields in any direction from the city center, then one at a right angle from the third. Offers minimal overlap and a single move on roads with no river crossing for one move defenders. In the first core of cities I am tempted sometimes to go further, but then I also go much tighter in the farther out towns.

In general you need no more than twelve workable fields in core and first and second ring towns, no more than six to nine in the towns further out.

 

[Bucephalus]

And so another day. Still no response from Conquerdude, shall I take this?

 

[Ansar]

If he does not respond this afternoon, I think you should. When did he post a "got it"?

 

[choxorn]

@All: okay, so the way AI's value tech and tech cost are different. Can someone tell me where the article on tech cost is?

Rule #1 City governors should never be active.

Not always true. zerksees would argue against this if he were lurking here, but he's not. My point is, it's possible to win with the city governor on- just ask zerksees. Don't argue with me over this. If you want to start an arguement, argue with zerksees, not me.

 

[vmxa]

It is possible to win the game doing any number of things, but it is not to say they are the best things to be doing.

Tech cost are readily availble by looking at the editor or using any of a number of tools. Techcalc if that is all you want is a quick answer to how much or CAII.

 

[SimpleMonkey]

All citizens must work the most powerful fields available to them

lurker's comment: If I might add one small thing to Bede's counsel, it would be that they should do so in a way that minimizes waste. Here's where you get into the deep world of bean-counting and calculation, but it does make a difference.

 

[Bede]

My point is, it's possible to win with the city governor on- just ask zerksees. Don't argue with me over this. If you want to start an arguement, argue with zerksees, not me.

It is possible to win building no roads or mines or irrigation, but I wouldn't recommend it, 'cause I've done it (see Gang of Four thread). And IIRC I was on a team that conquered the world at Emperor with governors on and another team that beat Demi-god with automated workers. Both games were fun but certainly failed to convince me that either are the way to go.

And zerksee's use of governors comes late in the game when there are lots of cities to manage and all you want to do is whup the remaining opponents.

Finally, there is no argument. Player management of cities and workers will beat automated management every time. In fact that is only aspect of play that allows the player to overcome the AI discounts and premiums at Emperor and above.

@the primate, now we start to get into the nuances of tile swapping, shield and food overruns and all that. Just let me say this about that: . I hate it, it's a nuisance, but needs to be done. If anyone is interested in examining the topic in greater detail I will offer a seminar when my turn comes around.

@Alexander's Pony - take it away the game is yours.

 

[Bucephalus]

@Alexander's Pony - take it away the game is yours.

OK, I have it.

 

[Tribute]

Sorry to jump on your "good catch", Ansar. But don't go getting froggy on me here. If you look at the shield cost one temple for a non-religious nation is 2.5 settlers.

Hmm, I always thought that temples were 60 shields and settlers were 30 shields. Temple for non-religious would equal 2 settlers.

And Bucephalus is really Alexander the Great's horse?

 

[Bede]

Hmm, I always thought that temples were 60 shields and settlers were 30 shields. Temple for non-religious would equal 2 settlers.

And Bucephalus is really Alexander the Great's horse?

You are right.

Yup, according to Plutarch, my illustrious predecessor

 

[vmxa]

I don't know about the 2 settlers as you also have to use pop, but it sure is worth two 30 shields attackers and the maint on one of them.

I always felt the issue is not so much making the temple as it was the way most will make them as soon as they get CB. I am not so fussy, if they make one at the point that they can do it quickly and are no longer expanding. If they keep it to a couple of core cities.

Cranking one out ASAP, is the killer.

 

[Bucephalus]

OK, I really think I need to make some changes here; things are a bit messy.

Paris: In flames, and building wealth. I sack the clown, put him to work in the wheat fields. The town will now grow in 5. Adjust the luxury slider to 10%.
If I can do a deal for Pottery I believe we can have a granary in 10, just as it grows to size 5. It goes (I think) like this: 5 turns x 4 shields = 20
5 turns x 6 shieds = 30
The remaining 10 shields would come from chopping the forest NW of Paris, using the badly tasked worker busily roading the forest next door.

Lyons: I move the citizen from the wheat that rightfully belongs to Paris. By placing him on the BG by the river I gain 1 gold and 1 shield. Curragh now due in 3.

Orleons: Military Advisor tells me that there are barbs nearby. Switch from building wealth to building warrior, due in 5. I leave the citizen working the sugar because a move to a 2-shield tile just gets a red shield, and the sugar gives 2 gold. But why is it irrigated? Surely it should be mined?

Rheim is building a worker. I leave it to do so.

Time to say hello to the neighbours. The guy with the bad hair has WC, Pottery, CB, BW, and Wheel.
For Writing he will give:BW, Pottery, CB and 60 gold. He will only give WC with one other tech. He'll give the Wheel with Pottery and CB. No gold.
Liz has parity less WC. She will give BW, Pottery, CB and the Wheel for Writing + 10 gold.

OK, I hope I'm doing this right. I'm going to deal with Geronimo. Here's my reasoning: Because Liz wants it more, I think that Geronimo has his medicine men researching Writing; if I sell to Liz, it's value will drop further still, far enough perhaps for it not to be tradeable anymore for WC or the Wheel.

However, if I sell to Geronimo we should at worst still pick up Wheel from Liz, and at best she may have a second tier tech (IW?) to trade.

I trade Writing for BW, Pottery, CB + 60 gold with Geronimo. He becomes polite. We smoke a pipe of something, and I depart.
Liz has IW. Liz will trade IW to me for Writing. I make the trade and............
we don't have Iron. Liz has Iron. Geronimo has Iron nearby. We do not.

I think a lot has happened here. Before I actually move anything I'll give you all a chance to tell me what an ass I've been, then at least the only damage that can't be undone is the trades. If I may make one last suggestion? I think we should stick with Phil. and hope for free MM. We need access to Iron, and have at least 2 landmasses that are attached by coastal tiles, that appear unsettled at present. Might there be Iron?

Oh, and can someone tell me how to upload my screenshots so that they come up in the thread full sized, not as a thumbnail?

Edit: Forgot to say, Geronimo is up Mysticism.

 

[Bede]

Time to say hello to the neighbours. The guy with the bad hair has WC, Pottery, CB, BW, and Wheel.
For Writing he will give:BW, Pottery, CB and 60 gold. He will only give WC with one other tech. He'll give the Wheel with Pottery and CB. No gold.
Liz has parity less WC. She will give BW, Pottery, CB and the Wheel for Writing + 10 gold.

OK, I hope I'm doing this right. I'm going to deal with Geronimo. Here's my reasoning: Because Liz wants it more, I think that Geronimo has his medicine men researching Writing; if I sell to Liz, it's value will drop further still, far enough perhaps for it not to be tradeable anymore for WC or the Wheel.

Sound reasoning all the way around. And in the end you got Iron Working. Not your fault that there is no taconite in our corner of the world.

And your thinking on proceeding to Philosophy in hopes of snagging Map Making is also a good one. Just make sure the others haven't had the same idea of going for maps before you choose it. Because then you will want to do something else.

ANd if the Philosophjy gambit fails, then what?

And I certainly can't complain about your city management. Anytime you can get one more gold piece and better productivity take it.

Without a town equipping a settler to claim the silk I fear that Paris will not get to size 5 without a change in the luxury budget. What happens if the town building a worker switches to a warrior till it gets some growth and then starts a settler. That ought to get you a settler for the silk before Paris grows
Something to think about.

On the mechanical thing. You can use the Upload File button at the bottom of the page. And just follow the instructions for copying the link and pasting it between IMG tags. Or you can use a service like Photobucket. I like Photobucket myself.

And I would say "Play on" you're doing great.

 

[gmaharriet]

@the primate, now we start to get into the nuances of tile swapping, shield and food overruns and all that. Just let me say this about that: . I hate it, it's a nuisance, but needs to be done. If anyone is interested in examining the topic in greater detail I will offer a seminar when my turn comes around.

lurker's comment: I, for one, would be greatly interested. I watch my capitol and first few core cities very closely in the early turns (especially a settler farm), then my specialist towns in the later game. I'm weak in the middle period and I'm sure I miss many opportunities. You're the known expert in empire management, and there's always more for me to learn about it.