D'Artagnan01: Low-level Training Day
- Thread starter D'Artagnan59
- Start date
@All concerning zerksees and governor: Okay, so it is possible to win like that. That's not the point. My point is, zerk seems to have the governor on all the time- just check out the threads in his sig. Can we just forget about this?
Tribute
Not Sarcastic
Let's see. After taking, the laborer from Lyons was it?, did you let someone from Paris go back to it?
And if the Philosophy gambit fails, hmm, I guess we could always gear up for a nice war. Or min sci our way into buying techs....
If the Philosophy gambit succeeds, but people have MM, then we need to get CoL for the Republic. The Republic can be either maxed or min sci'd. If we can get it before others and don't have things like Poly, Construction, HBr, Currency, MM, and Literature, we can get those. Else, we min sci.
Or if the Philosophy succeeds, and we have a decent prebuild, then literature is good and we can shut down research for the time being (until Education, a great money making opportunity (such as Printing Press, if possible, sold to the AI for "super" gpt), or to go down the bottom route of the tech tree, to Military Tradition.)
And if the Philosophy gambit fails, hmm, I guess we could always gear up for a nice war. Or min sci our way into buying techs....
If the Philosophy gambit succeeds, but people have MM, then we need to get CoL for the Republic. The Republic can be either maxed or min sci'd. If we can get it before others and don't have things like Poly, Construction, HBr, Currency, MM, and Literature, we can get those. Else, we min sci.
Or if the Philosophy succeeds, and we have a decent prebuild, then literature is good and we can shut down research for the time being (until Education, a great money making opportunity (such as Printing Press, if possible, sold to the AI for "super" gpt), or to go down the bottom route of the tech tree, to Military Tradition.)
Tribute said:
All is well until you get to the comment about "prebuild" and "Education" and "shutting down research". The last thing we need is The Great Library and minimum science. Little "l" libraries in every town that can do better than 10gpt net after corruption, yes. Great Library is the best way I know to kill the tech pace and we want the very fastest we can get. The best way to get that is to self-research at maximum affordable and trade the AI up to us, or zero science (which means no libraries at all) and feed cash into the global economy every opportunity we get. My preference is the maximum science route with libraries and universities in the core as the minimum science route just takes way too long without strong trading partners (though Hiawatha and Liz certainly qualify in that regard).
Just to make the biases clear I don't even think about wonders until Newton's and Copernicus at the end of the Middle Ages. And that coastal town on the gold hill is a great palce for those two.
CommandoBob
AbstractArt
Why do we want the fastest? Is that a general rule of thumb or specific to our Victory Conditions? I don't disagree, but would like to know what your reasoning is for that statement.Bede said:
If you are looking for an early space launch then getting the AI to help with the research up to the Modern Era is the way to go. If you are looking for a military win then you want to hustle to your Unique Unit then kill the tech pace.
Tribute
Not Sarcastic
I forgot about that. 
I was just thinking about winning due to diplomatic again....
I was just thinking about winning due to diplomatic again....
SimpleMonkey
King
lurker's comment: Of course, there are other ways to obtain techs without either researching or paying for them.
Agree 100% with Bede's assessment of the true value of Literature. Libraries are the real benefit of that tech. I find it very hard to justify building the GLib. It's main appeal is in capturing it in a high-level game where the AI is significantly ahead in techs. That single move has been a game-clincher in many a tough situation.
Libraries in towns with real production. Scientists in those that don't. Theft and extortion if you don't want your hard-earned gold to end up in someone else's bank account.
Ansar
Détente avec l'été
IMO, I have played with No research + Great Library, it creates a mess. Money wont help you much, researching is best, but TGOM, wont we be running deficit if we run really high science?
quoted for emphasis.
Also, are we going to do some kind of war in the near future?
quoted for emphasis.
Also, are we going to do some kind of war in the near future?
CommandoBob
AbstractArt
OK, I understand a bit better now on research.
But as the Inquistive Idiot, well....
But as the Inquistive Idiot, well....
Why 10 gpt? I like the number, it is nice and round, but, well, is this a rule of thumb or rule of exactness? I would not to misapply what you have said.Bede said:
It is a rule of thumb, if you want exactness you start at 9 net gpt
Libraries are buildings that multiply the budget amount put into science, but cost 1gpt in maintenance. The math goes roughly like this @100% science:
Total uncorrupted commerce=9 @100% science=9beakers per turn + library (1.5*(9-1gpt for library cost)=12beakers for a net 33% increase in beaker output. And if you hire a scientist instead you get only 2 beakers net as you will most likely be taking the citizen from a roaded field. Now, if corruption is 33% in the town you do better hiring the scientist if you can afford the loss of growth.
That's how the math works but just to keep it simple I set 10 net gpt as the starting point.
And of course we will be running a deficit, that's what Bedeian Economics is all about. Trust me, it works. And once we get enough towns down we can make science and tax farms, too.
Libraries are buildings that multiply the budget amount put into science, but cost 1gpt in maintenance. The math goes roughly like this @100% science:
Total uncorrupted commerce=9 @100% science=9beakers per turn + library (1.5*(9-1gpt for library cost)=12beakers for a net 33% increase in beaker output. And if you hire a scientist instead you get only 2 beakers net as you will most likely be taking the citizen from a roaded field. Now, if corruption is 33% in the town you do better hiring the scientist if you can afford the loss of growth.
That's how the math works but just to keep it simple I set 10 net gpt as the starting point.
And of course we will be running a deficit, that's what Bedeian Economics is all about. Trust me, it works. And once we get enough towns down we can make science and tax farms, too.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
Pre flight check on post 198
OK, deep breath and press 'Enter':
1) WorkerA moves to Parisian forest. Order restored in Paris. Move citizen from wheat to BG to prevent Paris from growing too quickly for the granary to keep pace. Now the granary will complete in 8 turns (if my maths is correct), and we'll reach size 5 one turn later. Philosophy in 8 turns.
2) WorkerC finishes mine at Orleons. Moves to irrigated sugar and begins mine.
WorkerA begins to chop forest for the granary project. Philosophy in 7 turns.
3) Lyons completes Curragh (hereafter known as Curragh1); I commission another, due in 5. Move Curragh1 2 tiles East; we have what seems like a smallish, heavily forested island NE of Lyons. WorkerB finishes mine at Rheims, starts to road. Curragh1 more of the island; looks to be about 8-9 tiles, but there is a bigger landmass to the East. Liz now has WC. Neither she nor Geronimo will sell it (or the Wheel) for our 74 gold. We have a new citizen in Orleons which I move to the mined tile NE of the city. The one extra gold shaves-off two turns of research - we now get Philosophy in 4 turns.
4)WorkerA finishes chop. Paris grows to size 4. Growth in 5, granary in 4. I adjust the luxury slider to 30%, the good news being we still get Philosophy in 3 turns. Orleon completes warrior. I commission a barracks. WorkerA moves towards Orleon to begin a road to the silks. Curragh1 exposes some lush grassland on the new landmass. Geronimo has Iron. But neither he nor Liz know anything new. New warrior moves toward silks on Barb patrol.
5) Liz is building Colossus. WorkerC finishes mine and is moved SW for a forest chop towards barracks. Warrior moves NW of silks, finds a fortified barb. Philosophy in 2.
6) Curragh2 is completed in Lyons, and heads off SE. Curragh1 rounds a headland and exposes more lush green & 2 wheat. Set Lyons to build barracks. WorkerA begins road towards silks. WorkerC begins chop. Warrior kills barb. Philosophy in 1.
7) We learn Philosophy; we get MM as a free tech. I agonize over which tech to research next. From what I read of Bede's musings it seems the choice is between CoL & Lit. I decide CoL, we have no city suitable for a prebuild towards GL and our towns are too small yet to benefit from libraries. WorkerB completes road at Rhiems, moves S for a forest chop towards barracks. Curragh1 exposes more wheat.
8) Paris completes granary. 1 turn to size 5; Wealth for one turn then endless settlers - we have our factory. Curragh2 moves along a new coast with a barb galley in pursuit.
9) Paris grows to size 5; the downside is that I have to up the lux slider to 40%. However the silk will be roaded in time for the next player to put our settler down anywhere next to it and get immediate benefit; dotmaps are in order, I guess. WorkerC completes forest chop nr Orleons; begins road. Barracks now in 9.
10) Barb galley sinks Curragh2. Barb warrior shows up S of Paris. Move unnamed warrior in that direction.
Summary: We now know BW, Masonry, Alphabet, Pottery, CB, IW, Writing, Philosophy, and MM. Both other civs will trade WC and Wheel + 50 gold for Philosophy; I'll leave that decision to better players.
Paris is a settler factory. We will soon have silks on line.
We have exposed what seems to be a large unpopulated landmass to the SW connected by coastal tiles. No sign of any resources there yet.
We are weak militarily, even compared to the barbs. I've set barracks to be built ASAP with forest chops. We will soon be spewing out settlers, and they will need the escorts. We are lucky Liz & Geronimo are so far away, but I suspect they might make demands now we have a tech lead.
OK, deep breath and press 'Enter':
1) WorkerA moves to Parisian forest. Order restored in Paris. Move citizen from wheat to BG to prevent Paris from growing too quickly for the granary to keep pace. Now the granary will complete in 8 turns (if my maths is correct), and we'll reach size 5 one turn later. Philosophy in 8 turns.
2) WorkerC finishes mine at Orleons. Moves to irrigated sugar and begins mine.
WorkerA begins to chop forest for the granary project. Philosophy in 7 turns.
3) Lyons completes Curragh (hereafter known as Curragh1); I commission another, due in 5. Move Curragh1 2 tiles East; we have what seems like a smallish, heavily forested island NE of Lyons. WorkerB finishes mine at Rheims, starts to road. Curragh1 more of the island; looks to be about 8-9 tiles, but there is a bigger landmass to the East. Liz now has WC. Neither she nor Geronimo will sell it (or the Wheel) for our 74 gold. We have a new citizen in Orleons which I move to the mined tile NE of the city. The one extra gold shaves-off two turns of research - we now get Philosophy in 4 turns.
4)WorkerA finishes chop. Paris grows to size 4. Growth in 5, granary in 4. I adjust the luxury slider to 30%, the good news being we still get Philosophy in 3 turns. Orleon completes warrior. I commission a barracks. WorkerA moves towards Orleon to begin a road to the silks. Curragh1 exposes some lush grassland on the new landmass. Geronimo has Iron. But neither he nor Liz know anything new. New warrior moves toward silks on Barb patrol.
5) Liz is building Colossus. WorkerC finishes mine and is moved SW for a forest chop towards barracks. Warrior moves NW of silks, finds a fortified barb. Philosophy in 2.
6) Curragh2 is completed in Lyons, and heads off SE. Curragh1 rounds a headland and exposes more lush green & 2 wheat. Set Lyons to build barracks. WorkerA begins road towards silks. WorkerC begins chop. Warrior kills barb. Philosophy in 1.
7) We learn Philosophy; we get MM as a free tech. I agonize over which tech to research next. From what I read of Bede's musings it seems the choice is between CoL & Lit. I decide CoL, we have no city suitable for a prebuild towards GL and our towns are too small yet to benefit from libraries. WorkerB completes road at Rhiems, moves S for a forest chop towards barracks. Curragh1 exposes more wheat.
8) Paris completes granary. 1 turn to size 5; Wealth for one turn then endless settlers - we have our factory. Curragh2 moves along a new coast with a barb galley in pursuit.
9) Paris grows to size 5; the downside is that I have to up the lux slider to 40%. However the silk will be roaded in time for the next player to put our settler down anywhere next to it and get immediate benefit; dotmaps are in order, I guess. WorkerC completes forest chop nr Orleons; begins road. Barracks now in 9.
10) Barb galley sinks Curragh2. Barb warrior shows up S of Paris. Move unnamed warrior in that direction.
Summary: We now know BW, Masonry, Alphabet, Pottery, CB, IW, Writing, Philosophy, and MM. Both other civs will trade WC and Wheel + 50 gold for Philosophy; I'll leave that decision to better players.
Paris is a settler factory. We will soon have silks on line.
We have exposed what seems to be a large unpopulated landmass to the SW connected by coastal tiles. No sign of any resources there yet.
We are weak militarily, even compared to the barbs. I've set barracks to be built ASAP with forest chops. We will soon be spewing out settlers, and they will need the escorts. We are lucky Liz & Geronimo are so far away, but I suspect they might make demands now we have a tech lead.
CommandoBob
AbstractArt
And the save?
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
and the save.........
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
@Bede: Just a quick note to let you know this one's still on my subscription list. You know my strengths (and weaknesses). If there's anything I can do to help in here, shoot me a 
in a PM and I'll tune in.
I caught something a page back about tile swapping and micromanaging... Whomp hosted a game with Chuckchi Husky...and I posted some MM tips in that one. If anyone wants a link I can probably dig one out.
in a PM and I'll tune in. I caught something a page back about tile swapping and micromanaging... Whomp hosted a game with Chuckchi Husky...and I posted some MM tips in that one. If anyone wants a link I can probably dig one out.
Tribute
Not Sarcastic
Excellent.
Really, now. Barbs must really be a problem
Again? Paris must really need some escorts.
We must really be ahead in tech if you got MM.... But with the unsettled landmass so close to us, this is a good choice.
I'm not sure, but did you check that Paris would not complete a settler with growth?
Hear, hear!
Good job! I see we have plenty of expansion room. We only need some harbors to upgrade the curraghs, unless more exploration is needed, more settlers, some galleys, and some defenses. Infrastructure can come later! (Barracks and granaries don't count in my opinion.)
conquer_dude
Imperial Slave
Can I leave this? I have too much to do and no time to do it.
Good job all the way around, Bucephalus.
Comments and quibbles:
Most efficient settler farm set up is between pop4-pop6. It is going to take a cycle or two to get it there. Between pop5-pop7 needs a temple to keep a lid on the lux spending; at 4-6, two MP's (get a second one down there ASAP) and the silk will do nicely, especially if you keep citizens working the high commerce tiles. To get it set up right you need to end a cycle with no food in the upper box which will happen the second settler out, I think
Here is the configuration at the start of the cycle:
And this is what it looks like at T2 of the cycle
Just make sure that you have +5 food at all times and the four turn cycle works. Ignore the shield box which says that it will take 3 turns to complete the settler. It does not account for the eighth shield on growth which is "invisible" during the interturn processing cycle but which happens. In fact the way I have it set up loses 1gpt and wastes four shields so the perfectionists among you can have fun looking for them.
Barracks are emphatically not needed to fight barbarians and are a drain on the treasury which is not needed right now. Warriors for local defense and archers for barb hunting are all you need; they can earn their own spurs. I would rather the shields for the barracks go into additional settlers or a harbor at Lyons or a galley as the harbor really isn't needed yet.
And it is probably time to get on the stick and do some more tech trading. If nothing else the cash will give us a cushion against the barbarians when they come, which they will.
Comments and quibbles:
Most efficient settler farm set up is between pop4-pop6. It is going to take a cycle or two to get it there. Between pop5-pop7 needs a temple to keep a lid on the lux spending; at 4-6, two MP's (get a second one down there ASAP) and the silk will do nicely, especially if you keep citizens working the high commerce tiles. To get it set up right you need to end a cycle with no food in the upper box which will happen the second settler out, I think
Here is the configuration at the start of the cycle:
And this is what it looks like at T2 of the cycle
Just make sure that you have +5 food at all times and the four turn cycle works. Ignore the shield box which says that it will take 3 turns to complete the settler. It does not account for the eighth shield on growth which is "invisible" during the interturn processing cycle but which happens. In fact the way I have it set up loses 1gpt and wastes four shields so the perfectionists among you can have fun looking for them.
Barracks are emphatically not needed to fight barbarians and are a drain on the treasury which is not needed right now. Warriors for local defense and archers for barb hunting are all you need; they can earn their own spurs. I would rather the shields for the barracks go into additional settlers or a harbor at Lyons or a galley as the harbor really isn't needed yet.
And it is probably time to get on the stick and do some more tech trading. If nothing else the cash will give us a cushion against the barbarians when they come, which they will.
CommandoBob
AbstractArt
I'm new to C3C, and have only heard about the Philosophy bonus and Republic slingshot. My understanding is that any 'next' tech is a freebie. If so, why get Map Making and then research Code of Law? Wasn't CoL a freebie?Bucephalus said:
Tribute
Not Sarcastic
Map Making is worth more. Code of Laws is a good choice too though. However, MM allows us to sail and settle the lands east and north faster than before. Code of Laws would do nothing really. And switching to the Republic so soon might not be so beneficial since we haven't connected many luxuries, have a high unit to settlement ratio (and no cities yet), and still need to expand!
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