D'Artagnan01: Low-level Training Day

[CommandoBob]

Alrighty then. I'll get the save. And I have it. So on with the show....

Edit 1: Why? Why? Why?! Civ III doesn't work when I load the save! It says that MusketeerFortify.flc isn't there! But it is! I checked! However, I can still load other files and still play civ. Just not the file. Maybe the file is bad? Or is it my computer?

Will try a restart and then complain later if it fails.

Edit 2: I did the restart and found something very interesting. The error message reads that "Musketeer/MusketterFortify.flc" is missing. That's "musketter" not "musketeer" Something is wrong.... (And it's not my fault, yays!)

Hmm.
This is my Muskeeter folder:

Two things come to mind. One, you've added some mod that changed the Muskeeter settings. Maybe. Two, you need to open the Muskeeter.INI file and see what it has for the Fortify setting. Mine is 'FORTIFY=MusketeerFortify.flc'.

Hope this gets you back on track.

 

[Bede]

lurker's comment: Why is it "accepted wisdom"? Shouldn't the need for railroaids depend on your civ's needs? what is the justification for any "rule of thumb?" regarding railroads? By the time you get them you are already committed (being the rookie I am, I always find myself commited to all out war). If your need is mobility I can see the exterior being more valuable. If you are trying to populate your specialist colonies I can see the outer rim being more valuable but why a "rule of thumb?" I don't want to be a jerk here but the one thing i have learned through watching these succession games is that decisions should be based on your goals. You guys are on target, your core cities are productive and you conected to the north (through Mohawk-man) only to get the iron to railroad. Shouldn't your moves be to maximize your use of the iron for as long as you have it? (It won't last forever without a full-on war or unless you bring mohawk-man alonng for the whole ride). That aside, why is it accepted wisdom?
Again, I ask with all due humility m(_ _)m

Your analysis is spot on, but like in all things humans keep looking for the "Blink" shortcut - just like "irrigate brown, mine green". Seven, or even nine, times out of ten the rule of thumb works just fine. There will always be instances when the rule of thumb is less than optimal. This is one of those instances. With a different neighbor, or a less than sterling diplomatic relationship, or a markedly weak army, the milnet railroad would have been the optimal move.

 

[Abegweit]

@ Tribute

Lurker's idea

try copying MusketeerFortify.flc to MusketterFortify.flc

/relurk

 

[Tribute]

CommandoBob (of course) is correct. The .ini file refers MusketterFortify.flc

I don't even want to know how that happened.... So I've changed it back.

Abegweit's solution would have worked; however, normal people do not do that. I mean, people who don't want to change stuff. Yeah.

I also apologize for being lazy and not checking that out first. Playing now.

 

[Tribute]

I'm not so sure how well I did this time. But.... Here it is.

(0) Wake worker in Paris. Trade an excess wines to America for 12 gpt World Map and 11 gold. We have so many ships! Do not renew our saltpeter deal with Lincoln. We have rifleman for building anyways. Additionally, do we really need cavalry? (or Frigates for that matter)?
(1) Mosqueton finishes a worker. As does Bordeaux and Strasbourg. I see a scary sight as many workers are on autorail to, I believe, Paris. Oh, and our workers needed to build a rail per turn is 4. Wake a (useless) Iro slave in one of the stacks. 1 turn till medicine
(2) Medicine-> Scientific Method in 4 at 90%. Bescanon Rifle->Factory. Cherbourg finishes a worker. Autorail finishes. Avoid a riot in Carne. Nobody has any interesting tech deals to make. Will simply use the prebuild in Paris for the ToE. It’s safer and easier. Scrap prebuild in Orleans for a bank.
(3) Amiens finishes an Aqueduct->university. Looks like another person got free artistry.
(4) Rheims Factory->Rifleman. Carne finishes a worker->Temple. Avoid riot at Rennes.
(5) Brest Aqueduct->Library. Sci Method in 1.
(6) Sci Method->Replaceable Parts (Just for D’artagnan) and because we’ve got time. Orleans Bank->Rifle. Lyons starts the real (and faster) prebuild for Hoover’s. Note that Orleans would have been much slower. ToE in 7. Replaceable Parts made into 6 turns.
(7) Medicine and Electricity are still monopolies. Many civs have advanced further. Maybe now is a good trade time. Korea has Fascism and the next two. England’s got Communism and the next one. And Inca have Free Artistry and no more. Not that any of these really matter though. Iro’s and America have some loose gpt. Maybe I can trade.
a. First: Korea gives us Fascism + 20g and world map for medicine
b. Second: England gives us Communism for Fascism + 119g
c. Third: Iro’s give us 116 gpt and World Map + 9 gold for Medicine
d. Fourth: America gives us Free Artistry 69gpt + 6 gold for Medicine.
e. Okay, that didn’t go quite the way I planned. But we got so much gold….
f. We end with +422 gpt. And 3766 gold
(8) Tours Factory->Police Station Orleans starts Shakes in 12. (I think we can get it.) Stop Toulouse from rioting.
(9) Avignon Factory->Police Station. We lose our supply of iron. Egypt gives us some for Wines Silks and 128 gpt. The alternatives were Iro’s or America, but they are rich enough…. Besides, we’ll get more potential buyers this way. They become polite.
(10) Bayonne Courthouse->Factory. Ah shoots! Iro’s get electricity. Looks like it’s time to sell it. But I can leave it to the next player. I have a feeling that nobody has any gpt to offer though….

The game’s easy to win now. Just finish ToE build both Hoover’s and Shake’s. Get Sanitation, then move on to the ‘industry’ techs. I’m actually quite surprised that the AI hasn’t gotten The Corporation yet. Then again, that’s probably America’s choice. We have railed just about every tile that Paris, Orleans, and Lyons use.

Don’t forget! With the ToE in 3, after researching replacable parts in 2, make sure to drop science and scientists to 0. And set to Atomic Theory.

 

[Tribute]

The <<SAVE>> at 1250 AD

 

[Bucephalus]

The game&#8217;s easy to win now. Just finish ToE build both Hoover&#8217;s and Shake&#8217;s. Get Sanitation

Will Shakespeares actually help? Does Orleans have the capacity to grow?

IMO Sanitation is a waste of time; we don't need hospitals.

Well done with the pre-build thing; I'm surprised that Lyons could out-build Orleans, with Orleans' head start.

 

[Bede]

Shakespeare's if we bother to build it is better in Lyons, or Paris, but probablt not needed for the population boost. Orleans is both food and shield limited so putting the Globe there won't enhance the victory goals.

Sanitation has value as trade bait but I would not make it a priority, a better use of those beakers is to get us into the Modern Era. We need to find and acquire both Uranium and Aluminium to successfully launch.

And I finally noticed Carne, a real hostage to fortune and AI good will. That kind of town placement will not work at a level higher than Emperor and is a risk even there. And all we gain is some pretty bland territory.

And banks and stock exchanges are close to useless as well, unless we are planning a war and end up turning off the science spigot.

Nice bit of trading around of what are to us unneeded technologies. That round is a good example of using obsolete and unneeded knowledge to acquire gold coins.

Now let's use them for something! Keeping money in the treasury is miserly and not of much value. Use it to finish buildings, finish rush military (and let's not neglect the military) or to buy things, like luxuries and resources. We are going to need to buy oil to upgrade the boats and be able to build tanks, just make sure to buy it before Combustion is learned as the price increases ince you know how to build destroyers and such.

The cruise to victory is in sight, but won't be here until we have acquired the needed resources.

Two nice rounds played here let's keep it up.

 

[Bede]

I think CommandoBob has the conn!

 

[CommandoBob]

Indeed I do.

I'll be getting to it this evening, after I post turns in another SG (nero04).

 

[CommandoBob]

1250 AD 4902 gold +169 gpt
Replaceable Parts 2 turns (0.9.1)

City builds:
City (size) notes

1. Paris (12), grows in 9999, Theory of Evolution in 3.
2. Orleans (12), zero growth, Shakespeare's Theatre in 9.
3. Lyons (12), grows in 7, palace in 12. (?) prebuild for Hoovers.
4. Rheims (12), zero growth, bank in 2.
5. Tours (12), grows in 15, police station in 6.
6. Marseilles (8), grows in 26, factory in 12.
7. Chartres (8), grows in 13, uni in 19.
8. Avignon (12), zero growth, police station in 7.
9. Besancon (8), zero growth, factory in 16.
10. Rouen (8), grows in 29, uni in 38. (rush?)
11. Grenoble (11), grows in 4, uni in 5.
12. Dijon (8), grows in 9, uni in 9.
13. Rennes (9), grows in 4, market in 3.
14. Cherbourg (6), grows in 9999, worker in 2.
15. Toulouse (9), zero growth, market in 8.
16. Bayonne (12), grows in 7, factory in 40.
17. Planchet (6), grows in 9999, aqueduct in 3. Police man! what do they do?
18. Mousqueton (6), grows in 3, worker in 1.
19. Bordeaux (6), grows in 9999, worker in 1.
20. Amiens (7), grows in 19, uni in 62.
21. Poiters (6), grows in 9999, aqueduct in 39.
22. Strasbourg (6), grows in 9999, worker in 1.
23. Brest (8), grows in 5, library in 24.
24. Carne (2), grows in 5, temple in 25 (not library?).

City Builds by Group:
Build [# being built](where being built)

• Theory of Evolution [1] (Paris)
• Shakespeare's Theatre [1] (Orleans)
• Palace [1] (Lyons)
• Bank [1] (Rheims)
• Police Station [2] (Tours and Avignon)
• Factory [3] (Marseilles, Besancon and Bayonne)
• University [5] (Chartres, Rouen, Grenoble, Dijon and Amiens)
• Market [2] (Rennes and Toulouse)
• Worker [4] (Cherbourg, Mousqueton, Bordeaux and Strasbourg)
• Aqueduct [2] (Planchet and Poiters)
• Library [1] (Brest)
• Temple [1] (Carne)

French Military

• 25 Workers
• 01 Pike
• 08 Longbow
• 09 Rifleman
• 10 Cavalry
• 10 Cannon
• 07 Frigate
• 06 Galleon
• 03 Musketeers
• 06 Mace

Total Units: 85; Allowed Units: 58; Support cost: 54 gpt.
01 slave

French vs.

• Iroquois - weak
• Egypt - strong
• Inca - strong
• Korea - strong
• England - strong
• America - weak
• Vikings - strong

World is mostly at peace, except for the fighting between Egypt and the Vikings.
Egypt has captured Stockholm and Reykjavik. Egypt 13 and Vikings 6 (cities).
We have an ROP with Iroquois and England.

Next techs: Atomic Theory, Electronics (get both with TOE), the Corporation, Refining (for oil).

Wonder Race: six people, counting us, building Shakespeare's Theatre.
Universal Sufferage: two (not us)
Theory of Evolution: one (us)


Highest named worker is WorkerT.
Connect all mainland cities by rail.

Questions and Observations:

1. If we miss Shakespeare, head for Universal Sufferage?
2. Why such a large navy? Thirteen ships.
3. Replace the Longbows with Infantry (one by one)?
4. In 600 years we have gone from three to four barracks. I think we need two more, just to be able to spread the military builds around.
5. Until our military is average compared to Hiawatha's gang, I think we should have four military builds at all times. Once we get average, reduce this to two military builds. Once we reach strong, drop to only one military build. And by military I am refering to land based units.
6. Don't expect to be able to match Tribute's trading. I think everyone else is still broke!
7. According to CAII, we are working 86 unrailed tiles, and one unimproved tile (which may be on an island).
8. We have the most gold (4902, thanks, Tribute), the most cities (24) and 3rd largest land area (350 tiles).
9. All victory conditions are turned on. I think we can ignore Conquest or Domination; probably Cultural, too. Diplomatic could lose the game for us. Not a problem yet, but after these turns we need to consider a prebuild to the UN.
10. Thanks to Tribute's trading, we have a large gold gpt cushion that allows us to research at 90% (787 beakers per turn without the geeks). Will exploit it while we can.
11. See we are selling horses to Abe when our 'offical' deal has expired (if I read CAII:Current Trades correctly). Will talk to Abe some more about horse-trading.
12. Also looks like the ROP with Hiawatha and Elizabeth have expired, too.
13. Our culture is 6 of 8. But our growth is constant.

On cash rushing: where is the best place to spend our surplus? Rushing a 62 turn university in a small town (Amiens) or rushing a 5 turn university in a larger town (Grenoble)? I hate to rush when a build is close at hand. And, I hate to rush in the boonies where the cost is high.

 

[Bede]

Rush where we get the most benefit and it may make more sense to rush military rather than buildings, unless we have a money rich, shield heavy town that would benefit from a university or some such. Cash is a replacement for shields, remember.

Neither Unversal Suffrage nor Shakespeare's are an overwhelming benefit to us, though as I said before Lyons would make a good spot for Shakespeare's.

You could dump the Shakespeare's shields into a palace at Orleans if that gets us a prebuild for the UN, or even into Hoover's if the timing is right.

Policeman are probably the best specialists in the game, but not necessarily this game. Our empire is of insufficient extent to make the best use of them and has too little second ring corruption to make the best use of them. If we p[ut 'duct's into the corrupt towns in the north and grow them out beyond six I could do a demonstration of the power of both CE's and cops, but it would be a diversion rather than of much value in this game.

 

[Tribute]

Oh, now don't give all the credit to me, CB. Remember that Bucephalus got to trade and gain gpt for us too!

We may as well make those northern towns cities. If we have to avoid a war with the Iroquois, we'll not only have higher defense, but slightly faster research. And we've got to use the money anyways.

We also get to use policemen and civil engineers if we do so.

I think we can get Shakespeare's and Universal Suffrage. But either build should/can be substituted for Hoover's once we get there. I'd prefer Lyons being switched from US, but whatever. At least Shake's will allow us one metropolis....

 

[CommandoBob]

See that our iron and coal, both required to make rails, are both imported. Ouch!

Horse trade with Abe, currently giving 19 gpt for horses.
Renegoiate and Abe wants to pay 50 gold and WM for horses. Not what I expected.
England will pay WM, 13 gpt and 3 gold (all) for horses. Make deal with England.
We have coal for 8 more turns.

Hit Enter.

Mousqueton worker -> worker, 10 turns.
Bordeaux worker -> worker, 10 turns.
Strasbourg worker -> worker, 10 turns.

01 1255 AD

Drop science down to 40%, now +466 gold, Replacable Parts due in 1.
Name workers; U to AL.
Rail both Dye forests near Marseilles; expected shields to increase but did not.
Rail to Toulouse.
Rush universities in Dijon (308), Chartres (356) and Grenoble (88). Remaining universities are over 500 each to rush, a bit rich for my blood.

Hoover cost 800. Shakespeare cost 450. Palace 700.
Can't tell yet where to put Hoovers.
​

[IBT]
We learn Replaceable Parts, begin to learn Atomic Theory.
Rheim bank -> vRile, 4 turns.
Chartres uni -> bank, 32 turns.
Grenoble uni -> bank, 27 turns.
Dijon uni -> factory, 24 turns.
Cherourg worker (AM) -> worker, 10 turns.

We lose our supply of incense. Bad news; cranky people.

02 1260 AD

Incas have one spare Incense. They offer Incense for Nationalism, we counter with Incense, 12 gpt and 45 gold (all) for Nationalism.
This looks to be a cheap deal, but it will keep our people happy.
Make the deal.
See that now we can road a flat land tile in 2WTs.
Rail to Chartres, Rouen and Besancon. All mainland cities are now connected by rail.
Will rail the core while we have coal.
​

[IBT]
Egypt and Scandinavia has signed a peace treaty.

Good News

We build Theory of Evolution in Paris.
We learn Atomic Theory.
And Electronics.
We begin to learn Corporation.

Just realized I should have dropped the Science slider to 0% last turn, since ToE would be built.

Paris ToE -> vRifle, 2 turns.
Rennes market -> uni, 25 turns.
Planchet aqueduct -> harbor, 20 turns.


03 1265 AD

Orelans Shakespeare -> Hoover, 16 turns.
Lyones palace -> Shakespeare, 4 turns.
Paris will take 19 turns to build Hoovers.
Up science to 90%. Corporation in 4 turns.

We have no native rubber.
And thus we cannot make Infantry.
Stop game. Time for discussion. Trade techs/gold for oil or take Reading from England and acquire oil? Or do something else?
The save is >>HERE<<.
​

 

[CommandoBob]

We have no native rubber.
Iroquois have rubber, 2 SW of Oka (1N, 2NE of Cherbourg). Rubber is in a marsh.
They have a second rubber, also not connected, in the forest NW of St. Regis.
England has one rubber, on Little France, 1NE of Reading.
Korea - none.
Incas - none.
Egypt - one, 1E of Thebes (connected)
Vikings - none.
America - one, 1NE of Houston.


Reading Area 1265 AD

Oka Area 1265 AD

What to do?
We have current deals with England and Iroquois.

Is rubber worth breaking these deals (damaged reputation) and waging war over?

 

[Bede]

Is rubber worth breaking these deals (damaged reputation) and waging war over?

Do that and I will personally rip your epaulets off and replace them with the entrails I previously removed from your guts with my quarterstaff - the one with the pike head.

Uh...really bad idea.

We can undoutedly do the same thing with rubber we did with coal, and we won't be needing either coal or iron once Hoover's is done. Rubber we need for both Infantry, if we want to bother with them, but more importantly for spaceship bits.

Once the deals are done we can consider a short jungle war with England for the rubber on the Isle de France.

 

[D'Artagnan59]

*dies*

RNG gods: Why are you in front of us?

Me: You gave that stupid greedy idiot Hiawatha rubber.

RNG gods: Go with the rest of everyone. Like Ragnar Lodbrok's son.

*throws Raggy's son out of sky*

*comes down on Hiawatha's head*

*takes to Raggy*

*is overjoyed*

*is relaxing*

 

[D'Artagnan59]

Take Reading and rename it to a city on Corsica or something.

And while you're at it, kick them off Corsica. With all the French who died.

 

[CommandoBob]

Do that and I will personally rip your epaulets off and replace them with the entrails I previously removed from your guts with my quarterstaff - the one with the pike head.

Uh...really bad idea.

We can undoutedly do the same thing with rubber we did with coal, and we won't be needing either coal or iron once Hoover's is done. Rubber we need for both Infantry, if we want to bother with them, but more importantly for spaceship bits.

Once the deals are done we can consider a short jungle war with England for the rubber on the Isle de France.

blankety-blank session timed out and my post was lost.

Again.

And I forgot to copy it before I previewed it.


In a now pissy nutshell:

War in not an option and that is OK. I wasn't happy about maybe trashing our rep, but felt I had to ask. Now I know.

Onwards:

I do not think that rubber is a serious a loss as I once thought. The main reason for using rubber was to build infantry to keep Purple Menace from thinking that we were too weak to be a problem. If we can keep Hiawatha from knowing about Replaceable Parts we do good. Especially if we can keep him ignorant for about 20 more turns or so.

So for now:

• We make veteran Rifles for better defense.
• We make some veteran fast movers for offense.
• We make no more long term deals with England for the next 20 turns.
• We avoid trading Replacement Parts for as long as possible.
• We hope no one else learns RP for a long time.
• We don't worry about the lack of rubber, since we will take it from someone (England or Iroquois, probably England) in due time (1360 or so).

Right? Did I miss something?

 

[Bede]

Start moving the boats and the troops into place for capturing the rubber from England. And train up Guerillas and Artillery, unless we need rubber for arty too. Let's not leave the logistics for the 19th turn of the 20 turn deal, m-kay?