Good point 
Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth
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jammerculture
Prince
I really like the changes to require resources before building the wonders. I think intended effects, to control the placement of the wonders and the added realism (How do you build the oracle without marble?) is excellent, so I think it would suck to change that just to help out one civ.
My suggestion with the worker had nothing to do with getting a headstart on cottaging or quarrying, rather eliminating any non-growth turns, as I have been able to win the tech and culture race but to do so required me to use the whip or starvation to increase production and resulted in a loss due to population.
With that being said I agree the free worker is a bit of a cheap way to go, I was just suggesting alternatives to changing the resource requirements for the wonders as I feel that the benefits outweigh the negatives, and over all the effect is equal between the AI and player, except when going for Babylon's UHV.
All in all, going for Babylon's UHV is kind of boring anyways, you have a set tech path that you can't really diverge from, you can't build any more cities or go to war so it's basically setting your actions on the tech path and then pushing "next turn" repeatedly going "come-on, come-on come-on" so really, its not a big loss at all. The point of playing these mods, to me anyways, is to get away from these cookie cutter strategies that had made CIV kinda boring in the first place.
My suggestion with the worker had nothing to do with getting a headstart on cottaging or quarrying, rather eliminating any non-growth turns, as I have been able to win the tech and culture race but to do so required me to use the whip or starvation to increase production and resulted in a loss due to population.
With that being said I agree the free worker is a bit of a cheap way to go, I was just suggesting alternatives to changing the resource requirements for the wonders as I feel that the benefits outweigh the negatives, and over all the effect is equal between the AI and player, except when going for Babylon's UHV.
All in all, going for Babylon's UHV is kind of boring anyways, you have a set tech path that you can't really diverge from, you can't build any more cities or go to war so it's basically setting your actions on the tech path and then pushing "next turn" repeatedly going "come-on, come-on come-on" so really, its not a big loss at all. The point of playing these mods, to me anyways, is to get away from these cookie cutter strategies that had made CIV kinda boring in the first place.
That's true. But I'd still like every UHV to be winnable, whether it's the original UHV or not.
So what should we modify to allow that? Give Babylon more time for culture/growth?
So what should we modify to allow that? Give Babylon more time for culture/growth?
aprogressivist
Chieftain
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Let us restate the current "bottlenecks" that can prevent the Bablyonian UHV as it stands, and thus constrain the Bablyonian strategy. Maybe that can give us more insight into it.
Cost/Benefit Analysis
Other factors:
jammerculture is correct to point out that Bablyon can not rely on the whip; at least, not before the Population UHV is achieved.
Unlike jammerculture, I think the tightrope nature of the Bablyonian UHV is part of the fun I get in playing them; I like the fact that with Bablyon, you can know very quickly whether you've won or lost. I don't have much time to play big empire games these days, so a very focused one-city challenge type UHV is exactly what I want
Huts: the usefulness of huts can be vast. The time saved by a hut giving you any tech is great; I'd argue that if you get a Hut that gives you Mining (as I did in one of my first Monarch victories -- it was sweet), you should go for Masonry before Mysticism to get those quarries up ASAP. However, making the Bablyonian strategy too reliant on lucky huts is... undesirable.
- Writing: since China usually techs for Writing very fast, this forces Bablyon to research Writing as its first objective
- Monarchy: Persia spawns on turn 84/85, meaning that Bablyon must obtain it before then. In practice, since the 1.186 patch and the reduction of research in pre-Medieval era times, it seems that the only possible way to obtain this is via the Oracle; I can not figure out how to get it in time via raw research, and I believe it can only be Bulbed in the Classical era, not the Ancient era. This remains to be confirmed. I've not yet had time to try to really thoroughly test a GP strategy.
However, for now, let us accept that the Monarchy requirement forces Bablyon to build the Oracle for it.
- Code of Law: I've never failed the Bablyon UHV because someone else discovered Code of Law first. I'd tentatively consider this one to be quite "safe" as long as the Babylon player doesn't drag his feet after Monarchy.
- Culture: the two main competitors for Bablyon in terms of Culture are Delhi (through founding of religions) and Egypt's capital (through building Wonders). In practice, I find this means that Bablyon needs at least two Wonders and a Library to win; Artists come too late in 1.186 since you need to get Monarchy before Code of Law, as discussed above.
- Population: the main competitors for Bablyon in terms of Population are Delhi and Beijing; Egypt usually takes itself out of the running through whipping. Delhi can be harassed by declaring war and preventing them from building farms (and if this causes the Indians to whip combat units, all the better!). However, there seems to be no reliable strategy to prevent Beijing from growing; they're too far away to harass effectively. In the past, I've been lucky enough that the Chinese use the whip enough that Beijing's population drops to below Bablyon's at the appropriate turn, but that's hardly reliable.
Cost/Benefit Analysis
- Workers: As I have argued before, I am unconvinced by the feasibility of building Workers after the beginning turns of the game; every Worker built represents an opportunity-cost towards elements that otherwise could benefit the Bablyonian strategy. If Bablyon starts work on a Worker on turn 1, that Worker will pop just one turn after Pottery has researched; from then on, it's in Bablyon's interest to get a Granary and/or Library up ASAP. Anything that gets in the way of this can cost Bablyon the UHV.
- Granary: naturally this is a very helpful building to win the Population UHV, especially so if you can farm the Wheat that's north of Shush.
- Library: since this gives both culture and research, this helps you towards two UHVs, as it will help you speed up the tree towards Masonry & Priesthood.
- Hanging Gardens: Given that +1 Population and +1 health is an awesome contribution towards the population UHV, making this buildable could well be a game-winner for the Bablyonians. Changing its Tech requirements to Pottery & Masonry sounds like a very good idea.
- Oracle: As I've argued, unless it can be demonstrated that Bablyon can obtain Monarchy before Persia spawns either through raw research or some Great Person strategy, the Oracle is simply a must-have.
- Other Wonders: If Bablyon can reliably build the Oracle and the Hanging Gardens, she may not need to have the Sphinx or the Pyramids, but the alternative strategies they offer should not be discounted. After all, having a single strategy to win the game makes it a little boring...
Other factors:
jammerculture is correct to point out that Bablyon can not rely on the whip; at least, not before the Population UHV is achieved.
Unlike jammerculture, I think the tightrope nature of the Bablyonian UHV is part of the fun I get in playing them; I like the fact that with Bablyon, you can know very quickly whether you've won or lost. I don't have much time to play big empire games these days, so a very focused one-city challenge type UHV is exactly what I want
Huts: the usefulness of huts can be vast. The time saved by a hut giving you any tech is great; I'd argue that if you get a Hut that gives you Mining (as I did in one of my first Monarch victories -- it was sweet), you should go for Masonry before Mysticism to get those quarries up ASAP. However, making the Bablyonian strategy too reliant on lucky huts is... undesirable.
Wow, that's what I call a thorough analysis! You should post this on the wiki!
This may make the UHV too easy if Babylon should get its hands on the Sphinx ...
If Rhye didn't change the bulb order, the techs that have priority over Monarchy when bulding with a GA are: Literature, Drama, Music and Polytheism. So if you could get your hands on a GA (via Sphinx), you could research Polytheism instead and bulb Monarchy.
This may make the UHV too easy if Babylon should get its hands on the Sphinx ...
jammerculture
Prince
It is not true that monarchy requires Oracle. i have gotten it through pure research by:
build worker tech pottery
worker cottages stone build granary tech writing
worker continues cottaging all flood plain, city works cottaged stone, undeveloped marble and cottaged flood plains as they come up, this gives you production, good growth and almost optimal commerce
build library
build pagan temple
build warriors infinitely
At size five working cottaged stone, three cottaged flood plains and undeveloped marble.
monarchy researched 1-3 turns before Persia, city is unhappy until monarchy but after has enough population to work all floodplains. However at this point further commerce does not help as the race to code of laws is easy to win.
This strategy caused me to lose the culture race but to win the tech and population race. If at any time I diverged and teched masonry and built a quarry on the marble for Oracle, lose monarchy race by 1-3 turns unless I use the whip or starve my city to work the forested hill, then I can build the Oracle and get free tech monarchy in time, but will lose population race, although I have won the culture race with library+Oracle+monument+Zoroastrian monastery.
I am in agreement that the hanging gardens could tip the scale. However the divergence to masonry would usually cause me to lose monarchy unless i got the Oracle. The benefit to hanging gardens would be the increased population to offset the use of the whip/starvation in order to build Oracle. Besides Babylonian Hanging Gardens synergise with the aim of this mod as I understand it which is historic realism.
build worker tech pottery
worker cottages stone build granary tech writing
worker continues cottaging all flood plain, city works cottaged stone, undeveloped marble and cottaged flood plains as they come up, this gives you production, good growth and almost optimal commerce
build library
build pagan temple
build warriors infinitely
At size five working cottaged stone, three cottaged flood plains and undeveloped marble.
monarchy researched 1-3 turns before Persia, city is unhappy until monarchy but after has enough population to work all floodplains. However at this point further commerce does not help as the race to code of laws is easy to win.
This strategy caused me to lose the culture race but to win the tech and population race. If at any time I diverged and teched masonry and built a quarry on the marble for Oracle, lose monarchy race by 1-3 turns unless I use the whip or starve my city to work the forested hill, then I can build the Oracle and get free tech monarchy in time, but will lose population race, although I have won the culture race with library+Oracle+monument+Zoroastrian monastery.
I am in agreement that the hanging gardens could tip the scale. However the divergence to masonry would usually cause me to lose monarchy unless i got the Oracle. The benefit to hanging gardens would be the increased population to offset the use of the whip/starvation in order to build Oracle. Besides Babylonian Hanging Gardens synergise with the aim of this mod as I understand it which is historic realism.
jammerculture
Prince
I just played two games as Babylon using this strategy. I got Monarchy before Persia spawned both times, although in the first someone else got it ridiculously early. They must have had goody hut help. I only played the second one out though and lost my worker to a chariot and was therefore unable to build quarries and get any wonders, losing the UHV due to culture. However I still know I would have been unable to tech to monarchy in time if I had taken a sidetrack to masonry, therefore any wonder building is out of the question using this strategy meaning the cultural challenge is probably unattainable.
So we are back to the Oracle needing to be a major part of the strategy. In all of my earlier attempts the Oracle could only be built in time at the cost of population therefore the inclusion of the Hanging Gardens to offset is probably needed.
I am off Babylon for awhile, was going to attempt Greece or Rome, unless these civs have been thoroughly tested with this mod. I am willing to pick my civs based on balance testing so let me know if there is anything in particular you want tested.
So we are back to the Oracle needing to be a major part of the strategy. In all of my earlier attempts the Oracle could only be built in time at the cost of population therefore the inclusion of the Hanging Gardens to offset is probably needed.
I am off Babylon for awhile, was going to attempt Greece or Rome, unless these civs have been thoroughly tested with this mod. I am willing to pick my civs based on balance testing so let me know if there is anything in particular you want tested.
First, I'm very grateful for your exhaustive Babylon testing, especially because I'm not too familiar with them myself.
Did you try to go Writing -> Masonry -> Mysticism -> Polytheism (possibly Pottery inbetween?), quarry the marble and build the Sphinx to pop a GA and bulb Monarchy?
Anyway, am right that these are the possible solutions for Babylon's UHV:
- remove the marble requirement from Oracle
- remove the marble requirement from Sphinx (although, if the startegy mentioned above works, it might be too much)
- make Hanging Gardens available with Pottery and marble (effectively Masonry)
Which of them would suffice? Would all be too much or rather offer more different strategies?
For further testing: Rome hasn't changed much, I guess. More important are
- Greece, while pretending the third UHV condition to be "Control Egypt, Phoenicia, Babylonia and Persia in 330 BC" (that's what it will be soon)
- India, especially because you seem to be quite fond of MM UHVs. Judaism is out of the race, Zoroastrianism and Protestantism provide new alternatives.
- China. They now have to build to universities which require Paper by 1000 AD. I'm still curious if they're fast enough for that.
- Ethiopia. Can they make it to Protestantism for their first UHV condition?
Did you try to go Writing -> Masonry -> Mysticism -> Polytheism (possibly Pottery inbetween?), quarry the marble and build the Sphinx to pop a GA and bulb Monarchy?
Anyway, am right that these are the possible solutions for Babylon's UHV:
- remove the marble requirement from Oracle
- remove the marble requirement from Sphinx (although, if the startegy mentioned above works, it might be too much)
- make Hanging Gardens available with Pottery and marble (effectively Masonry)
Which of them would suffice? Would all be too much or rather offer more different strategies?
For further testing: Rome hasn't changed much, I guess. More important are
- Greece, while pretending the third UHV condition to be "Control Egypt, Phoenicia, Babylonia and Persia in 330 BC" (that's what it will be soon)
- India, especially because you seem to be quite fond of MM UHVs. Judaism is out of the race, Zoroastrianism and Protestantism provide new alternatives.
- China. They now have to build to universities which require Paper by 1000 AD. I'm still curious if they're fast enough for that.
- Ethiopia. Can they make it to Protestantism for their first UHV condition?
I just made a try with Babylon, and even though I went for masonry and the wheel before monarchy I finished researching it 2 turns after Persia spawned. I went for jammerculture's strategy, and won the 2nd UHV condition. And I didn't do too much micromanagement, so maybe Babilu worked the hill up north for a few turns instead of the flood plains. So my conclusion is that it's quite possible to win the Babylon UHV on monarch, If you do the right choices. For example, after my worker was built, I was one turn from finishing pottery so I started a warrior, but I forgot to change it back to a granary. So it could really be improved.
jammerculture
Prince
ok you have all convinced me. I am going back to Babylon to test various situations where masonry is the second tech. Will report back soon.
Leoreth, I am most of the way through a Greek game and it has been too easy. The change you describe would make it way more challenging and way more interesting. Also explain MM UHV please.
First attempt, Greece spawned at war with me and with chariots. Both things I meant to ask you about as it has happened a few times. Usually they can be repulsed but this time I was defeated
However a couple comments on the strategy as outlined by yourself.
#1 pottery is required for writing
#2 Masonry requires either mining or mysticism, therefore you need to research four techs before being able to start quarrying. Then time to build the sphynx, then time to spawn an artist. At the stage I was at when the greek-wonder-chariot defeated me (~ turn 55) not sure if this is going to be possible but i will attempt again
WTH-My second attempt independant jerusalem attacked my undefended city and I lost on like turn 10. That has never happened and I've played about 10 Babylon games in the last week. Maybe we're on to something and the game knows we're going to beat it. But that would suggest that computers are gaining intelligence and the end of days is coming, in which case who cares about Babylon.
Anyhoo, back to reality (or at least what passes for reality in my world)
Leoreth, I am most of the way through a Greek game and it has been too easy. The change you describe would make it way more challenging and way more interesting. Also explain MM UHV please.
First attempt, Greece spawned at war with me and with chariots. Both things I meant to ask you about as it has happened a few times. Usually they can be repulsed but this time I was defeated
However a couple comments on the strategy as outlined by yourself.#1 pottery is required for writing
#2 Masonry requires either mining or mysticism, therefore you need to research four techs before being able to start quarrying. Then time to build the sphynx, then time to spawn an artist. At the stage I was at when the greek-wonder-chariot defeated me (~ turn 55) not sure if this is going to be possible but i will attempt again
WTH-My second attempt independant jerusalem attacked my undefended city and I lost on like turn 10. That has never happened and I've played about 10 Babylon games in the last week. Maybe we're on to something and the game knows we're going to beat it. But that would suggest that computers are gaining intelligence and the end of days is coming, in which case who cares about Babylon.
Anyhoo, back to reality (or at least what passes for reality in my world)
jammerculture
Prince
ok third attempt was given free tech Mysticism. Pretty sure that with this game I can win using my original strategy or the new one but I don't think it should count so I am saving it and starting over
I have never thought much of strategy that require you to reload until a random event goes your way.
I have never thought much of strategy that require you to reload until a random event goes your way.
jammerculture
Prince
Ok I am now pretty convinced that a GA through the sphynx is not the way to go. I was able to tech to monarchy faster then a GA could be produced using this strategy. After building the sphynx I could only run one GA without starving my city and since farming flood plains now requires biology there was no way for me to increase food production. Therefore it would take me 28 turns to make a GA and since the sphynx's GP is a prophet I only had 56% chance to pop one anyway. However I did a few things differently this game and made it to monarchy on the same turn that Persia spawned losing the UHV but only by one turn. Therefore it looks like a hybrid strategy may do the trick.
Here we go again.
Here we go again.
MM = micro management, i.e. exactly what you are doing as Babylon
India plays very similar to this for the first turns.I can only imagine this to be a Barbarian chariot flipped to Greece. Don't know why they spawn at war with you though, I'll have to look again but I don't think they're supposed to.First attempt, Greece spawned at war with me and with chariots. Both things I meant to ask you about as it has happened a few times. Usually they can be repulsed but this time I was defeated
So you say it might take too long?
Well, if the AI is going to go SkyNet anyway, at least we can take Babylon with us before we're nuked
jammerculture
Prince
Ok I did it. The trick was using shushan better.
My research path was pottery>writing>mysticism>masonry>priesthood>code of laws
i built worker>half of granary>library>rest of granary>pagan temple>Oracle>Pyramids
shushan worked tiles to give me a boost in commerce, so one of Babilu's cottages and then undeveloped dye. It produced a second worker for me which allowed me to finish of my quarries quicker which i think was key. Then it produced warriors for the happiness in Babilu
I had the Oracle built and Monarchy researched way before Persia spawned, and ended up winning within five turns of their spawn
So long story short, UHV is winnable, no balancing needed.
On to Greece, culture + Conquest=a Hellenistic Empire!
My research path was pottery>writing>mysticism>masonry>priesthood>code of laws
i built worker>half of granary>library>rest of granary>pagan temple>Oracle>Pyramids
shushan worked tiles to give me a boost in commerce, so one of Babilu's cottages and then undeveloped dye. It produced a second worker for me which allowed me to finish of my quarries quicker which i think was key. Then it produced warriors for the happiness in Babilu
I had the Oracle built and Monarchy researched way before Persia spawned, and ended up winning within five turns of their spawn
So long story short, UHV is winnable, no balancing needed.
On to Greece, culture + Conquest=a Hellenistic Empire!
Great modmod.
But I notice that right now Khmer 1st UHV is not reachable. Since we didn't have 'pacifism' religion civic, which is nice to grow 2 or 3 great artists, so I can't imagine how to make 12k of culture in time...
Maybe it will be better to change conditions of 1st UHV? or make it 9k at least?..
But I notice that right now Khmer 1st UHV is not reachable. Since we didn't have 'pacifism' religion civic, which is nice to grow 2 or 3 great artists, so I can't imagine how to make 12k of culture in time...
Maybe it will be better to change conditions of 1st UHV? or make it 9k at least?..
Okay, so the only thing I'll do for Babylonia is change Hanging Gardens to Pottery.
Thanks for your effort! Let's see how Greece works out
Well, I completed the Khmer condition in regular RFC without resorting to Pacifism. I still had to use Caste System, though, which is also not available. I'll test them these days
Thanks for your effort! Let's see how Greece works out
Thanks
Well, I completed the Khmer condition in regular RFC without resorting to Pacifism. I still had to use Caste System, though, which is also not available. I'll test them these days
jammerculture
Prince
What will be required to "Control Egypt, Phoenicia, Babylonia and Persia in 330 BC"
Exactly. Egypt and Babylonia will have only city anyway, for Phoenicia Sur will suffice. If Persia has only three cities in its core (most of the time), conquer Susa and Persepolis.
Moshe Dayan
Da General
Speaking of Phoenicia, I was wondering about the stability maps. Are they the same as Carthage's in regular RFC?
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