Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[srpt]

I actually prefer Italy as a place for France, Spain and Germany to fight over through the middle ages, especially given its small size on this map and the fact that there aren't really any other independent areas in Europe to fight over. when I was playing regular RFC a lot this would usually be the only dynamic thing happening in Europe, at least as far as the AI was concerned. so I would probably spawn them later.

as for an Italian colonial goal, if it was going to be historic in that they would be late to the party and have to scramble for something, you would need to bulk of the world colonized by the time they spawn, which begs the bigger question of Africa and making it a bigger part of the colonial game.

If you were going to spawn them in the Renaissance then I guess 1st to research Scientific Method, Mediterranean domination and culture/money wonders would be cool. Or settle some Artists and Scientists. Or maybe conduct a trade mission worth at least xxx gold, meaning you would have to go to China or India for it, and make the deadline too soon for Caravels so you would have to go overland. Or get a bunch of luxuries in trade.

 

[srpt]

or...

you could have a popup come up on the Italian spawn, like the one that comes up for the Mongols in RFCA, but this time asking do you want to be Venice, Genoa or the Pope
if Venice: send the merchant to China, build the San Marco Basilica and take Constantinople
if Genoa: build 7 banks and 2 cathedrals, settle 3 great artists and 3 great merchants, be the first to found a city in NA (what the heck, Columbus is from there)
if the Pope: ensure that every European civ declares war or Arabia at least once before 1200, ensure that there are no protestant European civs in 1700, ensure that no Catholic civ adopts Secularism before 1950

 

[borhap88]

Captain Obvious got many new fans recently. I'm pretty sure everyone here knows about the Italian conquest of Ethiopia.

The problem is, like you said, Italy is late to the colonial game. It conquered Ethiopia only because it was leftover from other Europeans. You think, that given a choice, Italy would rather have Ethiopia than say, Egypt? Think again. In this game, we play Italy from the Renaissance (not the 19th century) in an alternate history. Give me a good reason why you should go for Ethiopia if Egypt is available to you.

Same with the Germans. You think they chose Namibia because they think it's the best piece of land in Africa?

Dear Mr Bad Guy,

I could appreciate your efforts to create an alternate history with Russia or USA and I suppose that the creation of another version of history is the first desire of every RFC or DoC player, but I think that UHV should be a little bit nearer to reality than to your fantasy. An Italian colonizing-UHV without Ethiopia would be too much unrealistic: that's what I wanted to explain.
Your suggestion (Control or Vassalize every Mediterranean civ/city except France in 1940), to me, would be so ugly. I can't accept that a condition for Italian historical victory (I'll repeat: HISTORICAL victory) must see Italians in Spain

 

[iOnlySignIn]

I think that UHV should be a little bit nearer to reality than to your fantasy. An Italian colonizing-UHV without Ethiopia would be too much unrealistic: that's what I wanted to explain.
Your suggestion (Control or Vassalize every Mediterranean civ/city except France in 1940), to me, would be so ugly. I can't accept that a condition for Italian historical victory (I'll repeat: HISTORICAL victory) must see Italians in Spain

OK then. I think Spain can be made an exception in addition to France, for gameplay reasons.

You want reality rather than fantasy? Here's some real history for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy's_Mare_Nostrum

Notice how Ethiopia does not border the Mediterranean.

Also, quote:

"The bars of this prison are Corsica, Tunisia, Malta, and Cyprus. The guards of this prison are Gibraltar and Suez. Corsica is a pistol pointed at the heart of Italy; Tunisia at Sicily. Malta and Cyprus constitute a threat to all our positions in the eastern and western Mediterrean. Greece, Turkey, and Egypt have been ready to form a chain with Great Britain and to complete the politico-military encirclement of Italy. Thus Greece, Turkey, and Egypt must be considered vital enemies of Italy's expansion... The aim of Italian policy, which cannot have, and does not have continental objectives of a European territorial nature except Albania, is first of all to break the bars of this prison... Once the bars are broken, Italian policy can only have one motto - to march to the oceans."
—Benito Mussolini

Notice how Ethiopia was not mentioned at all, whereas practically every bit of the Mediterranean shore is mentioned (except France and Spain). Because Ethiopia was never a top choice - it's leftover. Second-best. Compromise.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

If you were going to spawn them in the Renaissance then I guess 1st to research Scientific Method, Mediterranean domination and culture/money wonders would be cool.

That's the point I'm pushing.

Or maybe conduct a trade mission worth at least xxx gold, meaning you would have to go to China or India for it, and make the deadline too soon for Caravels so you would have to go overland. Or get a bunch of luxuries in trade.

if Venice: send the merchant to China, build the San Marco Basilica and take Constantinople

I've been advocating more Venetian style UHV conditions for Italy for a long time.

Italy's historical ambitions have always been huge. For the true cultural and ethnic heirs of ancient Rome, domination of the Mediterranean is the most mundane and common goal imaginable.

 

[Acmeandco]

Sorry about the last couple of failed edit suggestions, but this time I have a legit one:

In the 19th century, the dates jump around a lot... I'm playing as Russia.

1863 -> 1890 -> 1838 ...

 

[Dumanios]

An idea on a compromise for the Italy problem.

"By 1945, control Egypt, Ethiopia, Greece, Libya, and Turkey."

Egypt, Greece, and Turkey come in to form Mare Nostrum. I'm considering adding the Levant as well, but five areas seems enough. Libya and Ethiopia comes in for what Italy actually succeeded in taking, and since Eritrea and Somalia, both Italian colonies, are generally considered Ethiopian core territory anyway, it works for that purpose.

 

[Leoreth]

I actually prefer Italy as a place for France, Spain and Germany to fight over through the middle ages, especially given its small size on this map and the fact that there aren't really any other independent areas in Europe to fight over. when I was playing regular RFC a lot this would usually be the only dynamic thing happening in Europe, at least as far as the AI was concerned. so I would probably spawn them later.

I agree with this, which is why I have made Italy's spawn conditional in the first place, but it shouldn't go so far that they never spawn. Plus, I'm very much interesting in balancing it so that they get conquered by their neighbors in at least 50% of AI on AI confrontations still.

For the Ethiopia goal, I mainly went for it because that's a region that doesn't see much action and could use a little spicing up. The Italian UHV as a whole will get a makeover at some point so I'll definitely keep the other ideas here in mind.

Italy itself lends itself very well to various types of UHV goals, no matter if culture, science or gold related, or anything with great people. Great people are actually my number one reason to let them start before the Renaissance: getting Marco Polo, Leonardo da Vinci and Galileo Galilei is just too good to pass it up. There doesn't need to be a GP related UHV goal because it's more elegant to make them the solution instead of the goal - and the UP and the Leaning Tower's return make them an obvious choice for Italy anyway. Since one goal will still be focusing on a militaristic 20th century Italy (because I like that you have to change your gears from commerce mongering to militarism at some point), it's still very hard to capture Renaissance Italy with the other two goals.

 

[Leoreth]

Sorry about the last couple of failed edit suggestions, but this time I have a legit one:

In the 19th century, the dates jump around a lot... I'm playing as Russia.

1863 -> 1890 -> 1838 ...

Nothing to be sorry for, but I'm not sure if I understand your problem. Do the years you've mentioned directly follow each other? If so, do you have a save where this happens?

 

[borhap88]

OK then. I think Spain can be made an exception in addition to France, for gameplay reasons.

You want reality rather than fantasy? Here's some real history for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy's_Mare_Nostrum

Notice how Ethiopia does not border the Mediterranean.

Also, quote:

"The bars of this prison are Corsica, Tunisia, Malta, and Cyprus. The guards of this prison are Gibraltar and Suez. Corsica is a pistol pointed at the heart of Italy; Tunisia at Sicily. Malta and Cyprus constitute a threat to all our positions in the eastern and western Mediterrean. Greece, Turkey, and Egypt have been ready to form a chain with Great Britain and to complete the politico-military encirclement of Italy. Thus Greece, Turkey, and Egypt must be considered vital enemies of Italy's expansion... The aim of Italian policy, which cannot have, and does not have continental objectives of a European territorial nature except Albania, is first of all to break the bars of this prison... Once the bars are broken, Italian policy can only have one motto - to march to the oceans."
—Benito Mussolini

Notice how Ethiopia was not mentioned at all, whereas practically every bit of the Mediterranean shore is mentioned (except France and Spain). Because Ethiopia was never a top choice - it's leftover. Second-best. Compromise.

Ok, but, in every game I played with Italy, I conquered or vassalized Egypt in order to find a road to Ethiopia. Turkey, considered as the Anatolia, shouldn't be in an Italian UHV; Italy fought Turkey only because of Italian ambitions over Tripolitania and Cyrenaica. The other territories, also quoted by your Mussolini's quote, such as Tunisia, Corsica, Albania, Malta, Cyprus and other Greek islands, are underrappresentated in this game.

As Leoreth said "For the Ethiopia goal, I mainly went for it because that's a region that doesn't see much action and could use a little spicing up".

IMO 3rd Italian UHV is right.

 

[Gruekiller]

Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but I'm often quite annoyed that for Italy's tech goal, Banking is very frequently discovered before I even spawn.

 

[constantinople]

For Thailand's goal, when you say southern Asia, do you mean Maritime and Mainland Southeast Asia or do you mean India and Indochina? Or even both? And by foreign powers, do you mean European and non-Asian powers or just all nations other than Thailand?

 

[Fresol]

It's been answered before, but is buried deep I guess.

The areas include India, Indochina, Indonesia and the Philippines. Chinese presence in Indochina also counts as foreign power. However I think it is still bugged, even if you expelled all the foreign forces the goal is still a little red cross.

 

[constantinople]

Yeah, I'm getting that too.


Do independent cities count?

 

[Fresol]

Supposedly not.

 

[Leoreth]

It's all of India, Indochina, Indonesia and the Philippines (basically the areas covered by the non-Portuguese conqueror events). The civs that belong there are okay, as well as independents.

Edit: by the way, I'm still thinking about how to improve CE over SE. I've considered various changes to the Capitalism civic and I think a flat commerce bonus (like +10% or so) is best to balance this, because changing the extra commerce for the various cottage types has too many side effects. Commerce bonuses only affect raw commerce, so specialists will stay the same, while CE will be buffed accordingly.

Is there something I didn't think of? And what would be the right percentage?

 

[Fresol]

Maybe you can move the Representation +2 effect to somewhere else also?

 

[Leoreth]

Like where? It feels right there.

 

[Fresol]

Then buffing Capitalism would also benefit SE, because commerce largely comes from trades.

 

[Leoreth]

But you'd still have to run Capitalism at least, which means no Egalitarianism.