Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[Panopticon]

The Franks and Visigoths weren't Romans.

 

[Shadow Merc]

Yes, France and Spain would spawn regardless because the various tribes that invaded Rome would have moved in and settled the land. It's not like France and Spain were dependent on Rome to exist, it just happens that a bunch of tribes took those cities and then formed new kingdoms.

Though speaking of conditional spawns, I had an idea that the Moors, Turks, Mughals, and even Prussia have a case for conditional spawning, mainly because they shared a core with another civ, but now with the cores changed I may need to look at some of them again to reevaluate. AFAIK Prussia and Turkey still fit my criteria, but I'd need to look at Moors and Mughals again.

 

[jackelgull]

Rome never really directly controlled Spain or France as we think of it today. It was a low tech empire, meaning the tools for governance invented in the industrial era weren't there. Nobles in those areas pledged allegiance to the Roman Empire because it was a dominant power and he who curried favor with Rome could potentially gain an advantage over his neighbors. And if the area was considered Roman enough, the nobles could potentially join the Senate thus closening ties with Rome and its vassals.

This France and Spain never really revolted or were captured by the barbarians. The nobles realized that being Roman no longer was advantageous, and courted the favor of its new "barbarian" rulers. And those who didn't died. Simple as that.

Okay, pedantry aside, I was wondering if the UP of America could be spiced up a bit as it feels too generic. Could it perhaps be tied to a higher likelihood of a corporation appearing in cities? This would gel well with the ten oil resources goal and the oil industry.

 

[VGL]

Only condition I can ever see on France and Spain is an unstable or dead Rome.

Not a bad idea, in my opinion the majority of spawns should be conditional, but that creates a lot of consistency issues. Fact is, the game does need to have some level of predictability because of its limitations (example: if France and Spain don't spawn, who settles certain parts of the Americas? Ideally it would then be Rome, but then more conditions need to be added on their settler map, war map, etc.).

ehh,France barley settles cities in Canada and 4 cities in america only and usually,i find a Asian civ conquering the Aztec and mayas. so spain just sits there doing nothing

 

[CaterpillarKing]

When does an Asian civ ever take the Aztecs?? Many years of RFC and DoC and never once have I seen that Spain is always enormous in my games and ends up collapsing because of all the territory they lost to spawns

 

[VGL]

well,china,Korea,arabia and Mongols did and a lot of times in the older SVN's,Portugal,moors and france

 

[VGL]

Rome never really directly controlled Spain or France as we think of it today. It was a low tech empire, meaning the tools for governance invented in the industrial era weren't there. Nobles in those areas pledged allegiance to the Roman Empire because it was a dominant power and he who curried favor with Rome could potentially gain an advantage over his neighbors. And if the area was considered Roman enough, the nobles could potentially join the Senate thus closening ties with Rome and its vassals.

This France and Spain never really revolted or were captured by the barbarians. The nobles realized that being Roman no longer was advantageous, and courted the favor of its new "barbarian" rulers. And those who didn't died. Simple as that.

Okay, pedantry aside, I was wondering if the UP of America could be spiced up a bit as it feels too generic. Could it perhaps be tied to a higher likelihood of a corporation appearing in cities? This would gel well with the ten oil resources goal and the oil industry.

Well,what if the AI somehow is still powerful?the only reason they revolted was that romans got week.if romans were strong,then they would be under roman empire

 

[Leoreth]

Historical discussions are fun, but the following question is much more important: what would be the point?

 

[VGL]

too make human roman players happier and too make some sense because France and Spain wouldn't spawn if Romans were still powerful after 5th century.and can you make a better condition for Latin American civ too spawn?something like the decolonization thread mrrandomplayer suggested.

 

[Leoreth]

Why not do a proof of concept first

 

[VGL]

well,after the Germans conquered Rome,the roman empire fallen,leading lots of independent realms and kings in Spain and France. So,if they never collapsed or were powerful,then why would they want to be separate from the Romans? and if they wanted too,they would declare their independence hundred years laters

 

[Fresol]

What is the point? Say you are Babylonia and you have settled Corinth. Should the Greeks not spawn?

 

[Leoreth]

I could write another essay about historical accuracy versus the impact of alternate history events now, but honestly I don't care enough at the moment.

It should be obvious that it is impossible to have both and that the proposed approach cannot possibly work when you think it all the way through. See need my speed's post.

 

[VGL]

the culture of Greeks and Babylons were different from each other. after the conquest of Celts by Romans,most people in France considered themselves roman

 

[VGL]

It was.

But, this argument will lead nowhere; a person coughing a single attosecond later in 5000 BC than he or she did in our timeline will mean that Christianity, Rome, and practically everything you can think of won't exist (or radically different). So even if Muhammed wasn't influenced by Christianity, the fact that there's no Christianity at all butterflies Islam away.

Why?Muhammad would came anyway and who knows?maybe Europe would become muslims

 

[Leoreth]

the culture of Greeks and Babylons were different from each other. after the conquest of Celts by Romans,most people in France considered themselves roman

The Franks definitely didn't, as a whole. Neither did the Visigoths.

(Again, not going into specifics like actually engaging with the prevalent Roman concept of civic citizenship as opposed to the tribal concept of identity of Germanic peoples, which are not actually incompatible.)

Why?Muhammad would came anyway and who knows?maybe Europe would become muslims

If you (as you presumably do) believe in divine inspiration of Islam, then yes.

I am however only interested in a discussion of religions as historical phenomena, because everything else is pointless. And historically, Islam as an idea is impossible without Christianity as an idea, just as Christianity as an idea is impossible without Judaism as an idea.

 

[VGL]

Well,they were After the roman empire and not during the roman empire

 

[Leoreth]

Who was what?

 

[VGL]

I meant franks and Visigoths.
and why is it impossible to have Islam without Christianity?

 

[Vekkimaster]

It's basically that or failed respawns that occur but then don't amount to anything because they remain too small. I know it's sometimes annoying when it happens to you, but some kind of balance has to be found. Spillovers of separatist sentiment are not entirely unrealistic, see for instance why Turkey, Syria and Iraq are worried about an independent Kurdish state even outside of their borders.

I have a new question about the same thing. I was playing the same Roman game with solid stability. I had Constantinopoli. The Turks respawned total of three times in a timeline of 100years flipping my city during the 1st and the 2nd time, but not on the 3rd time, while all the surrounding cities, like before, Odessa and Angora flipped. What is the reason of this strange none-constantinopoli flip?