Deity Isolation Workshop (Stan/Norm/Fractal/NH/NE)

[Lain]

Gandhi practise game is interesting so I replayed it a bit... 11 times. Experimented with early tech path and stuff. I did stuff things like sending Trireme to other side of my island for upgrade and faster exploration. I can post save so if you want to play a little bit, @Olafeson. However I think maybe sunday or so we start the Hannibal game anyway (official next game for this workshop : D) so it's not really worth it to start something else right now.

I would love some feedback on my progress. Did I improve? City placament and such.

@Rusten sensei? Would you win from my position (cuz I am sure I will lose from here) and who would you attack first?

 

[Pedro78]

Thanks Lain, I had the written exam's results. I did surprisingly well but that also means that I won't play any Civ4 until July 1st. Good luck to everyone on the next game(s)

 

[Rusten]

I'm really busy the next 1-2 weeks so no progress or new games for me until then.

@Lain I don't have much time to look right now and I would like to see more of Isabella's island before deciding, but Mansa Musa or Isabella look best to attack first. MM would be ideal, but it depends on his pace.

But what caught my attention is your lack of GPP with so much food available. You're Gandhi, there's no excuse for this -- it's absolutely dreadful. For instance you've not taken advantage of the Oasis (great tile)+fresh water grassland next to it, which could definitely get a GS at some point. I'd also share the pig, then, and perhaps a FP. This city would have enough food to run 2 scientists even without the pig, and during caste system cycles it could run 3 or 4. You should aim for a minimum of 4 GS by Astronomy. And if "only" 4 then the 5th and 6th need to follow quickly. You should definitely tech CoL here. Obtaining it as late as 780 AD was a huge mistake.

It's probably optimal to settle the first (or 2nd) GS. That science adds up and isolation games go long. Can't lighbulb early anyway in isolation and with this food and Gandhi you have no problem getting enough GS.

You need to send your workers south to irrigate immediately too, otherwise you will not have the required production.

In general I recommend more than 2 caravels. You want to be the first to explore the barren sea -- not just contact everybody and circumnavigate. AIs will pay money for maps of this as well -- not just land. You'll get a lot of gold back in return. The caravels can also be upgraded to frigates later if you need to save some time building a navy (sometimes these caravels gain a lot of XP killing barb galleys too).

 

[Rusten]

Curious to see how it plays out for you now @Rusten . Joao is pretty much toast, but what then? Can you catch up to guys like Ragnar or will it be diplo (which is impressive enough in my book ). Question: How do you reinforce against Joao? You have Galleons with superior movement, but if he sends a few Frigates your way, aren't you kind of stuck on your home island? You kind of have to sail "blindly" into the ocean and hope no Frigates snipe you?

Another question: How do you decide on trading away Steel, for example? You could grab lots of stuff now (Education, Nationalism). What is the best time to capitalise on that? I guess you don't want Joao to get cannons. So do you hold it back until he is broken?

==

1) Yes, looks like I can catch up to Ragnar. After ironworks I had 4 cities ready to whip frigates. For the first disembark they are not required as you don't DoW until you land.
2) I would not trade away Steel for Education or Nationalism because the techs are useless to me at that moment. There would be no way for me to use them to get my hands on something useful by reselling IIRC. Don't just trade blindly. Think like a human and not the AI. Is this tech useful to me? If the answer is no, then ignore it.

 

[Lain]

Thanks for the feedback, definitely helps a lot. So you'd say I have a chance here (despite the GPP mess?). Because otherwise it'd be better to replay again I suppose. Like: would you resign if someone forced you to continue from my save ?

Some pieces are starting to come together, I have a better idea of what to do now. At least when there is space to cottage.

About the trades: Do you sometimes trade just "because otherwise they might get Steel and then I'll have nothing"? That is my reasoning for many trades. While Education or Nationalism aren't useful right now, they will be eventually and you don't want to miss the chance to trade for it while you can, right? Not sure how to balance that sometimes.

If you have a few spare minutes, would you mind taking a look at the following map and outline a strategy that might work? Because I am getting nightmares from it. Low-commerce environment in isolation. That's outside my league right now.

Monarchy -> CoL while carefully managing expansion? Something like that? I am studying through your post history on the forums right now (I organised a folder where I collect your saves and work through them I put more dedication into this than into my bachelor thesis) and found that you don't/didn't like (non-fin non-river non-bureau) cottages much. But Alphabet or vanilla scientists don't seem like they are going to cut it either? So what do I do? Because I can't tech broker my way out of this mess for a long time. 600 AD Astro seems like a pipe dream. Or is it?

 

[Rusten]

The save is winnable, but it's like cycling with a flat tire. It would be less tiresome and faster without the handicap. I could reach my destination, but I'd rather get handed a bike without a flat tire.

Trades: As long as the tech in question is not a prerequisite for something you need soon then there is no rush. In the case of my save it would give Steel to civs like Sumeria/Arabia who could again trade it to the Khmer/China -- thus increasing the global tech pace (which I would not want).

Are you sure you attached the right save? Because that island doesn't look so bad. You'll be able to tell that you have a 2nd island to expand to and you even have forests and marble!
Furthermore you have islands to expand to after Astronomy and 2 civs share a small island to the south (should be easy pickings).
Yes to CoL (both caste and courthouse should be good here) and I would strongly consider the aesthetics path for fail gold (or maybe even completing the GL).
lI would not be bothered about not getting Astronomy by 600 AD as you have so much good land already (2nd island). Some delay is ok. But with enough fail gold I'm not even sure 600 AD is out of the question. If relying on chopping (fail gold) you could also consider teching mathematics+alphabet and lightbulbing Optics in addition to Astronomy (no good academy target here and it regains the beakers spent on mathematics+alpha). Would give you the option to produce science also which could be good here. I like it a lot.

I only peaked in WB though -- didn't actually try playing.

 

[Lain]

It's not that the land is necessarily bad, I just don't know how to get the most out of it. For the early game I have the choice between grassland cottages and scientists. Both seem awfully slow.

Aesthetics sounds nice. But if I want enough failgold (or the GL for that matter) I'd have to beeline that and delay Monarchy/CoL as a result, no? Just getting Monarchy and CoL feels like a headache.

Would you advise Aesthetics (-> Literature) -> Monarchy -> CoL then? Pick up Maths somewhere for the better chops? I don't know how to generate the commerce basically. Especially since in my game there was even a barb city on the only good river. So it just felt awkward to play. Maybe it's not the hardest map ever, but the necessary shift in thinking/playstyle makes it difficult for me. I don't know how to deal with it. Feels too different from the Boudica game for example.

Stay on 4 cities and run 2 scientists everywhere? Will I even reach 100 beakers by 1 AD like that?

Thanks for your time. I don't really know how to improve here by myself without senseless trial and errors.

 

[Lain]

Alright, let's start a new game in the meantime, it's been a while . Leader is Hannibal and FIN/CHA provides an excellent combination for isolation.

Here is the start:



Capital is looking juicy aswell, so I hope that encourages a few people to try their luck here. It's your golden opportunity, because next time we might enter the abyss with Tokugawa and a tundra start.

I will record this again and try my best to win this time. Need a break from playing Pangaea maps for a bit . Feel free to share your thoughts and progress here.

 

[unas876]

Well I know I'm not gonna win this map, but I played through it a little bit, until 775 BC. A few screenshots etc:

Spoiler :

As you can see, there's some pretty good land, but not too much of it either.
I decided to keep my empire at three cities so far: 1 bureau cap + two cities with nice food which I am currently growing out and am planning to starve down big time as soon as I get the opportunity to switch into Caste System. I probably messed up the timing big time and should have an Academy running by now with this super cottage spot, but early on I really wasn't sure whether I wanted to waste a GS on that. Maybe I'll use the first one for it anyway, better late than never. While that is happening I want to grab a few more spots, particularly the sheep+FP one in the south-west.
Ofc as the pleb I am, I wasted a bunch of turns here and there with micro fails, but the two biggest mistakes I have made I think was: 1) neglecting Sailing for too long. Not sure why I'm all busy teching Monarchy, saving money for CoL when I don't even have lighthouses in my coastal spots. And 2) I teched Masonry with the idea of accumulating some failgold here and there, but I have yet to put a single hammer into a wonder. Just had other stuff to do the whole time and gold accumulation is really not that hard anyway with FIN and mass cottages.
Anyway, I'm now planning to go full blast to Optics, bulb Astro and then we'll see.

Edit: also I built a bunch of monuments everywhere for no good reason really. I got libraries for the culture and I could more easily get the +1 from a warrior for half the hammer cost.

 

[Lain]

Hey, thanks for playing . Can only comment now because I hadn't reached 775 BC yet.

Spoiler :

Your beaker rate and overall situation is looking decent. Main difference I see to my game (uploading as we speak so don't want to spoiler too much ) is that I had 6 cities by this time. Because I figured that commerce wouldn't be the problem here. Rather, production is a bit lacking. So I tried to focus on that.

I think that you will reach Optics/Astro in a timely manner, but the follow-up might become tricky.

CoL is an interesting idea and will make up for later scientists. Should be fine. Sailing is important, but I didn't have it for a while either. There is food in abundance, but getting Granaries and Lighthouses in takes a while. 700 BC I was still busy with Granaries I think, since many of my hammers went into more Settlers and Workers

Hope some more people join, it's quite a fun map I think.

 

[soundjata]

thanks for sharing this Lain

 

[MeowZeDung]

Decided to give this a shot. To 900 BC:

Spoiler :

Really good starting land, and the horses next to the capitol were the cherry on top. I briefly considered pursuing GLH, but decided against it since I wasn't sure I could get it in my second city on Deity. Fogbusting was simple enough, and I only really had to deal with one archer, and my chariot was timely.
My empire thus far:

Carthage is a fine bureau cap, Hadrumetum is going to give up the pigs and work the coast and clams with Moai Statues, I'm hoping to build a juicy wonder or two in Utica with all those forests, Hippo and the soon to be settled SW floodplain city will help with commerce, and Kerkouane will make a very nice GP farm with pigs and 2x fish.

Most of my questions revolve around tech path. I'm currently planning math>currency>col>IW>MC>compass/machinery (not sure the order)>Optics. However, with all those forests and production in Kerkouane, I'm considering MC right after math is finished so I can race for both the hanging gardens and the colossus. The latter is more powerful here, so I would probably save several forests for the turn MC was finished. Even without copper I think it's doable unless some AI oracled MC or Mansa is on this map. Don't know if the attempt is worth diverting off the economic tech path temporarily though.

 

[Lain]

Hey, thanks for playing

Spoiler :

Expansion is looking great. Placement is nice aswell, just a shame that the silver won't become available for a long time. Happy cap in general is a problem though. I strongly suggest teching Mysticism (+1 happiness from monuments) -> Poly -> Priesthood -> Monarchy ... next. Maybe CoL after that for the scientists. You want to turn Kerkouane into a GP farm, but right now it will be capped at size 5 or 6 (with a monument) for a very long time. If you go for Math, Currency etc first.

You got the important infrastructure (Granary etc), so right now would be the time to grow cottages imo. With all that food I would basically cottage every grassland tile in sight. River or not. Working 20 cottages across the empire by 1 AD would be the bare minimum. Especially being financial and all.

Maths and Currency don't do much in this situation. Hanging Gardens, probably not. Health situation is not that bad. I think you are fine until size 10 or something. Pigs/Wheat/Sheep + 3 seafood. Pretty diverse as it is. Colossus, hmm... well, I'd prefer cottages and avoid working the coast. And I think you don't have Copper? Stone could and maybe should be used for failgold I suppose.

Then again, I'm not an expert on isolation... most of my losses on Deity come from this. So it's all just imo of course.

 

[Lain]

Good to see you, BornInCantaloup. The gems are a heavy blow. Losing one hammer on the mine like that is tough. But I'm sure the mighty Carthaginian Empire can recover from such tragedies

Spoiler :

Let's see if you get "lucky" with the Pyramids aswell. Interesting tech path. I delayed AH and even BW in favor of early cottages. Expansion suffered a bit because of that. Guess I like your approach better.

What I've been meaning to ask, @BornInCantaloup or @Rusten : Do you whip settlers as soon as possible at 40/100, or wait for 69/100 to get max overflow? It probably "depends", but any rule of thumb there? Because you could argue either way I guess. I find myself second guessing my choices lately. I'm thinking that whipping as soon as possible might be best. Because the city isn't growing while working on a settler... But I can't calculate gains vs losses on the fly. And the value of having a new city 2 turns earlier is hard to assess.

 

[Rusten]

It does not "depend". Always whip as soon as possible unless you have a particular/clear reason not to. 1 is worth more than 1, even before granaries. Whip early, be it the first or 5th settler.
I'm glad you asked, because I saw an experienced player recommending always whipping at 39/69 (for max overflow) to a new player. But whipping right away is much more efficient.

BIC sighting!
I would love it if you miss the Pyramids by 1T due to getting those gems.

 

[dutchfire]

Overflow into wonder?

 

[Rusten]

Overflow into wonder?

That would go under "particular reason not to whip". Special circumstance because wonders have a whip penalty.

 

[learner gamer]

I’m (only) an immortal level player and learned a lot by watching @Lain’s Peter game on youtube so thought I’d give this start a whirl. Attached is my second attempt (to 1000BC). My first ended at the hands of a plague of barb archers and some unlucky combat losses.

Spoiler :

Early tech path: Agri – AH – TW – Pottery – Masonry – BW.

Capital went worker – warriors to size 5 to provide extra barb defence – settler.

Nabbed the ‘mids in 1480BC.

Currently at 4 cities. Hadrumetum will 1 pop whip a chopped settler in 2 turns and Utica will 2 pop whip another settler shortly after.

Would next tech maths – currency and settle the rest of the landmass. Need to get a library up and run some scientists under representation too.

@BornInCantaloup:

Spoiler :

Are you playing the same game? You make this look easy. More seriously, how did you deal with the early barb threat? Chopped chariots? Looking at your screenies, I think I’ve learned something too….you look to have managed to shoot for early BW and yet still get to where I was tech wise at 1500BC ish (having delayed BW in favour of early pottery in my game) because you nabbed the commerce from early workboats instead of cottages in the capital. Nice play!

 

[MeowZeDung]

It does not "depend". Always whip as soon as possible unless you have a particular/clear reason not to. 1 is worth more than 1, even before granaries. Whip early, be it the first or 5th settler.
I'm glad you asked, because I saw an experienced player recommending always whipping at 39/69 (for max overflow) to a new player. But whipping right away is much more efficient.

I've always been curious about this and erred on the side of max overflow. I will stop delaying whips on settlers and workers and see if my game improves. Thanks @Rusten !

 

[Fippy]

Not sure if i would sign "always whip asap"..
i think the right approach as usually will be "depends".

Sometimes city spots are not prepared yet, for example worker still needs a bit.
Sometimes you would like another worker after your settler, and can take more overflow cos the whipped city will hold growth on settler or worker.

It's not good overdoing the waiting for overflow thingy, i think we all agree on that.
But it's also not always right to ignore that possibility.
Obv if there's a great city spot waiting, it's usually right to whip asap. But not always the case