Deity Isolation Workshop (Stan/Norm/Fractal/NH/NE)

[Fippy]

Think i reached a key point in my game
For some reason, Mansa never capitulated to Cathy or Shaka..so i took one (good) city from him now, with my less than scary "army" lol.

I could bribe them both off him with Astro, and try to take his remaining cities for myself.
Ofc it's a problem that Cathy (and Shaka, maybe) are already starting to tech away.
If i not bribe them off, i would think Mansa capitulates next turn.
Side note, i already consider it successful getting that far

 

[Lain]

Yup, good job getting this far for sure. So what do you think about Jans? I just think they come at such an awkward time. At that time it's just two techs until cannons anyway~. Can still use them for stack defense though.

Cathy looks a bit scary in your game. Hmm. But bribing them off and capping Mansa yourself won't do much good for diplo situation? Wipe him out for some land at least? Not easy I think.

 

[Fippy]

Hmm i would say Jans are really good, the problem are Trebs against Castles if you have no time
They killed 2 Mansa longbows with almost 100% city defense bonuses left, 3 Trebs barely scratched his Muskie but i lost no Jan.

Will play on without bribing them off, yep.
I think waiting for cannons would have made things worse, only ~200 beakers research and on this map every big city captured helps cos those on our cute desert continent are so small.

 

[Fippy]

Quick update for you Lain, i cannot find much motivation for naval invasions currently (enjoying the isolated aspect before more, esp on such hard maps).
Keeping the game thou until i feel tempted, any tips on how you keep motivation up for sea transport of units?

 

[Lain]

I keep motivation because I still don't know if I can win. So I want to find out and keep playing . I am not good enough yet to play until Astro and say: "Okay, game is won, now it's boring."

Hm, normal Cuirs games on Pangaeas are harder to finish for me. Because I did it 1000x times and know that I can't lose anymore... only fun until 1 AD. But isolation, naval invasion and stuff... usually tough fights until 1800s AD

For example, take my position here from that Brennus game. Try to win the war and manage diplo etc. It's really hard. One wrong move and whole stack is gone (Toku beelined cannons ofc...). With better play I could attack probably 1100 AD and then it's boring because I fight vs Longbows.

Though the game went really bad after 800 AD or so... had to self-tech Guilds, Engineering, Gunpowder, Chemistry + Steel. Nobody traded anything. With Mansa in the game I attack much earlier and take that whole continent by now.

Really fun game for me~.

 

[Berks]

Hi Fippy - hope you find motiviation to finish that game , a victory screen on that map is a great accomplishment IMO.

Lain, shocked to hear you think the Brennus game is harder given the Mehmed island, although it seems like the RNG certainly stacked everything against you in an already marginal starting spot (take this as a sign you are ready for Sid level )

 

[Lain]

Just to keep the thread alive, I want to share something from my current practice game. Playing a bit with the Shuffle map script lately. Seems totally unbalanced so far. Love it.

Got Willem with a kind of slow start. 760 AD I am closing in on Gunpowder, everything pretty standard.

Spoiler :

My beaker rate always suxx. And probably no Engineering trade again, gg.

But there is a lot of free land to settle. Now I wonder if I should go for all of it myself or no? It will probably slow down attack date (maintenance, investment into settlers). What is the best approach here?

Also, who to attack? Feeling brave, maybe Toku. Or Victoria and win diplo chicken style.

 

[Fippy]

Wish i could still finish "normal" games like years ago, but seems this time has passed for me
If it's not sgotm, or gotm i really struggle getting thru the weak late game.
Yep you heared that right, imo Civ4 is very average after some time has passed burn me on a stake

 

[Lain]

Easy UN win, but I still don't understand the voting thingy... game says, Toku won't vote for me yet.

Spoiler :

But then he goes and votes me winner. Toku votes at "Pleased"? Sounds so wrong.

Spoiler :

I looked at all the AI spreadsheets (+Know your enemy profiles), but nothing explains voting behavior.

 

[Snowbird]

Easy UN win, but I still don't understand the voting thingy... game says, Toku won't vote for me yet.

But then he goes and votes me winner. Toku votes at "Pleased"? Sounds so wrong.

I looked at all the AI spreadsheets (+Know your enemy profiles), but nothing explains voting behavior.

AI votes at certain + attitude (+10 or more likely +11). Normally that is friendly, except averaging with vassal. as far as i get attitude averages with vassal, while voting does not.

Ask someone who knows vassal crap better fr further details.

 

[elitetroops]

Yeah, the threshold is a certain attitude, not that they must be friendly. I think in some cases they could also be friendly but attitude not high enough to vote for you.

 

[Lain]

So it's +10 or +11 not counting the hidden modifiers then? Because some AI will be friendly, others won't (caused be "first impression"). Seems pretty straightforward. Thanks.

 

[Snowbird]

So it's +10 or +11 not counting the hidden modifiers then? Because some AI will be friendly, others won't (caused be "first impression"). Seems pretty straightforward. Thanks.

I think +11 line includes hidden (don't these range from +2 to -1?). At+10 with hidden modifiers and no vassal stuff involved AI ought to be friendly, no?

 

[Lain]

So I picked up that trainwreck Mao map again to practice a bit. Feel like I am doing better than before, but 55 beakers @ 375 BC can't be a good sign? What could have been done better here and how to continue? Even with massive failgold we are looking at a late Optics. Especially if I am making detours for Math, Alpha, Monarchy and CoL. Sigh. There is just no commerce.

Spoiler :

Any input @Rusten, since you know the map? I tried to use your suggestions, but it's looking dire.

 

[Fippy]

I would choose a different early tech path there
No fishing, with AH - myst - masonry - poly - ph while trying to block barbs off on forest hill south and west of Shanghai.
Quarry replaces crabs commerce, ToA fail gold helps more than granary, and so on.
Imo it's a typical beeline marble stuff before anything else type of map, it's all you have.

 

[Lain]

Hmm would be worth a try. Don't know about barbs though. Will need a bit of luck with tundra spawns. Archery is like standard tech for me~.

I identified few problems in my save though... Masonry should have come before Mysticism for Pyramids failgold. And 4th city is not doing anything, just costing money. Should delay it a a few turns maybe. -8 instead of -15 each turn is a big difference... just weird to have only 3 cities in 500 BC.

Also what about wb exploration? Sounds nice in theory but paying +1 each turn for what? Information about land I can't settle for 1000 years anyway. Complicated.

 

[Fippy]

Forgot the wheel, sorry
Yup distance def causes problems here, without happy to make something out of food cities they are dangerous distractions.
Maybe i am too optimistic in skipping archery, just thought if you stay small anyways that might work. It's also why i dislike fishing, enuf work building warriors already without sinking hammers into boats.

Hunting & Archery are so hurtful for any Oracle tries (bw too), chopping is nice but with marble can certainly be built without them.

 

[Lain]

Hm interesting about Fishing. Used to hate it. But now I am always happy to see seafood, because it secures early commerce. Imagine starting inland here with plains cow and 20 forests. Also you only have to defend one direction.

With CoL, maybe a GM can bulb Metal Casting here and then I have Glib+NE for Optics bulb. So probably the map isn't really hard. But it requires some deeper understanding for the game. In my head, I had like a check list: 1000 BC = 4 cities is good. Took a long time to accept that maybe having only 3 cities in 500 BC is also acceptable here .

Also, not whip so much. Because even working the lake nonstop and having higher pop = lower unit cost can be more important. Had a great game recently where I only switched to Slavery 500 BC or so... because no food. But it had really nice side effects. Didn't whip settlers like an idiot and had a nice economy.

I made the mistake of learning to play this game on Pangaea maps... where you can do pretty much what you like, just make sure to get Aesthetics by 300 BC or so for trades

TBH, I would almost never go Oracle. Because I usually go Archery. Think I mentioned it before, but I am counting the games I win in a row. One time I had like ~20, then I rolled an "easy" map with tons of floodplains and a peaceful neighbor. I didn't go Archery and got wrecked by random war declaration 1500 BC. 20 wins for nothing. Since then I usually go Archery, even if there is 1% of dying.

I think BiC tried for Oracle here and barbs wrecked him. Three times~. But it's possible I guess.

 

[Fippy]

You certainly have noble motives, i cannot argue against that
For me warriors are often not more dangerous than archery, but it requires high levels of micro and planning their every step which i learned in many Iso games (stopped playing Pangaea for myself long ago).
It's difficult comparing games on that base, i cannot expect others to have such intensive training with them.

 

[Fippy]

Can give an example thou

Spoiler :

When i see ice & tundra in Iso, i send my first unit there (warrior is placed "nice" here, can see tundra on t0 ). Bit of scouting out the shape, then he stays there.
Most peoples, including me before i practised that more seriously, would send them scouting around for good city spots or forest hills.

But..you can usually gain control of areas with good defensive terrain, but ice..where would you fight an archer here.
That's imo the best early fogbust spot.