Dell screws Ireland over... In favor of Poland

Funny how Germans always complain when the countries to the East of them want to attract investments. I think it's better to keep these factories in the EU, rather than to force the companies to move production to Asia.

Note that the point inno made had nothing to do with the lower wages being paid. If that would have been the sole reason for the transfer, then there would be no problem from my view. The point is, that one european government pretty much bribed (exempting them from a general tax is a bribe in my books) a company away from another european country. This also has nothing to do with eastern europe -some regions of Germany have pulled similar stunts.

If all the EU nations would agree to not make these special deals - the net effect could only be positive.
 
EU forecast counts with about 2% growth in 2009.
I know. Forget about the official forecasts of countries, international institutions or influential participants of the world economy (i.e. banks). Really. Compare any forecast for any given country one year or even a few months ago with actual developments and current forecasts. For that matter, compare the judgments of certain posters at CFC who were and are praised for their economic knowledge with what was happened. I can think of only very few posters who really saw the mess coming relatively early. The same holds true for forecasts and mainstream economists.

At this point just about every country or region important for the few countries in Europe who held up well (yes, Poland and Czech Rep. rank among them) are in recession. Western Europe, Asia (including China), the US, just about every economy contracts, at least on quarter-on-quarter basis. This will have a severe impact on the remaining growing economies. Add to that that the financial sector in these countries is controlled by Western banks who are in fact all bankrupt.

Don't worry about unemployment. It's going to rise soon enough. It takes a while before slowing growth feeds trough. For example, it took three quarters of GDP contraction before unemployment started to rise in Germany. This however is an extreme case. But it's not even important whether Poland or any other fast growing economy will meet the criterion for a technical recession or manage to maintain growth rates above 0 %. These so called 'dynamic' economies will feel the full impact in terms of rising unemployment, growing public deficits etc. even with growth rates that for many developed economies would be considered normal or above trend growth. Think about China as an extreme example where 6 % of GDP growth is considered to be a recession.

So indeed, I do believe that the good times are over in Eastern Europe as everybody else is suffering too. Some comprehensive statistical data for Poland and the Czech Rep.:
Poland: http://polandeconomy.blogspot.com/2009/01/forex-lending-crunch-means-trouble-is.html
Czech Rep.: http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/economics-and-demography/how-near-is-the-czech-economy-to-recession/

Funny how Germans always complain when the countries to the East of them want to attract investments. I think it's better to keep these factories in the EU, rather than to force the companies to move production to Asia.
It really matters little for anyone whether the jobs are going to Poland or to Asia. The people affected still lose their jobs and the rest of the population really doesn't care whether some Polish city benefits or a tiny island in the Pacific ocean. The people will be angry one way or another. From a very distant strategic perspective you could say that it's good that the jobs at least stay within the EU. But nobody applies this logic, not even the starter of this thread. It's rather the point of view that makes the EU so dislikable for many of its citizens.

I also am very sceptical about the (tax) competition within the EU. I'd argue that it has a lot more impact than the so called globalisation on European economies. While overall tax revenues and government spending are not falling we can see that the share of corporate tax revenues on total tax receipts have fallen considerably in the last decades. We can phrase that differently: workers (i.e. the large majority of the population) increasingly have to carry the tax burden whereas 'capital' gets to be taxed less and less. I don't think that's a very desirable path to choose but it's the only path to follow as long as the rules of Europeanisation are not changed.
Regardless of that, tax exemptions in cities or regions that apparently are even doing better than the national average (see Lodz) kind of smell.
 
I know. Forget about the official forecasts of countries, international institutions or influential participants of the world economy (i.e. banks). Really. Compare any forecast for any given country one year or even a few months ago with actual developments and current forecasts. For that matter, compare the judgments of certain posters at CFC who were and are praised for their economic knowledge with what was happened. I can think of only very few posters who really saw the mess coming relatively early. The same holds true for forecasts and mainstream economists.

On the other hand, I see no reason to despair and produce one bad forecast after another. We're now in the "everything's falling apart" phase, which makes people do wrong predictions just as the "everything's fine" phase of the cycle.

At this point just about every country or region important for the few countries in Europe who held up well (yes, Poland and Czech Rep. rank among them) are in recession. Western Europe, Asia (including China), the US, just about every economy contracts, at least on quarter-on-quarter basis. This will have a severe impact on the remaining growing economies. Add to that that the financial sector in these countries is controlled by Western banks who are in fact all bankrupt.

From what I've been hearing in the news, all Czech banks are doing fine for now, still making profits. That would mean we survived the stage one - the financial crisis. We can't do anything with the stage two - the economic crisis, but since we didn't have to bail out banks and thus de facto nationalize the banking sector, I believe we are in better position to cope with it.

Just today, the PM's advisory council (its abbreviation is NERVE :lol: ) came with some draft plan of anti-crisis measures. Most of them look realistic - no "let's make the deficit 10 times bigger by lowering VAT" nonsense, the government plans to invest more into the education, regional infrastructure, R&D and companies should have easier access to gov. subsidies for perspective projects. Finance minister had the audacity to say publicly that this crisis may be an opportunity to clean up the economy :lol:

Don't worry about unemployment. It's going to rise soon enough. It takes a while before slowing growth feeds trough. For example, it took three quarters of GDP contraction before unemployment started to rise in Germany. This however is an extreme case. But it's not even important whether Poland or any other fast growing economy will meet the criterion for a technical recession or manage to maintain growth rates above 0 %. These so called 'dynamic' economies will feel the full impact in terms of rising unemployment, growing public deficits etc. even with growth rates that for many developed economies would be considered normal or above trend growth. Think about China as an extreme example where 6 % of GDP growth is considered to be a recession.

I think we can handle 1-2% rise in unemployment, that would leave us with unemp. rate of 6-7%. It's not like there will be a massive rise returning us back to late 1990s and double digit numbers.

So indeed, I do believe that the good times are over in Eastern Europe as everybody else is suffering too. Some comprehensive statistical data for Poland and the Czech Rep.:
Poland: http://polandeconomy.blogspot.com/2009/01/forex-lending-crunch-means-trouble-is.html
Czech Rep.: http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/economics-and-demography/how-near-is-the-czech-economy-to-recession/

It really matters little for anyone whether the jobs are going to Poland or to Asia. The people affected still lose their jobs and the rest of the population really doesn't care whether some Polish city benefits or a tiny island in the Pacific ocean. The people will be angry one way or another. From a very distant strategic perspective you could say that it's good that the jobs at least stay within the EU. But nobody applies this logic, not even the starter of this thread. It's rather the point of view that makes the EU so dislikable for many of its citizens.

Meh, people will never understand that when the country gets rich, it simply loses the competitive edge in some of the less-sophisticated branches of industry. Ireland would lose this investment one way or another. This way it at least stays in the EU so the EU doesn't lose everything. I am not expecting that the fired workers in Ireland will understand that.

I also am very sceptical about the (tax) competition within the EU. I'd argue that it has a lot more impact than the so called globalisation on European economies. While overall tax revenues and government spending are not falling we can see that the share of corporate tax revenues on total tax receipts have fallen considerably in the last decades. We can phrase that differently: workers (i.e. the large majority of the population) increasingly have to carry the tax burden whereas 'capital' gets to be taxed less and less.

Isn't that logical? Less taxation means more economic activity, more economic activity means more jobs and greater revenues (thus also the shareholders profit), more jobs and greater revenues mean more money for the state. Looks fine to me.

Of course you can't lower the corporate taxes too much, but there is no point in keeping them so high as in many Western European countries. If the collected taxes are used mostly to pay for the extensive welfare systems, then it makes sense that it's the people who has to pay for it - isn't that how Scandinavian countries work?
 
So let me get this straight. Western European governments give money to the EU. This money goes to poor nations such as Poland. Poland uses this cash to cut taxes. These tax cuts entice businesses to move away from Western Europe and into Poland.

This is just redistribution of wealth on an EU scale. Supporters of the free market should not support such redistributive taxes, nor the anticompetitive, economically nationalist nature of EU-subsidised tax cuts.

EDIT: PS. Kill the CAP.
 
It's our own fault for being greedy
In fairness Dell workers in Limerick aren't on much more than the minimum wage.

I do think that most people in the country earning more than the average industrial wage (about €40k) need to take a pay cut for the country to become competitive again.

If it came down to it I would take a pay cut to keep my job.

You never know what will come out of this: when Digital (an old computer company for you kids who don't know, which was later taken over by Compaq which was taken over by HP) closed their manufacturing line here in Galway and moved it to Scotland in the early 90s it was a big blow to Galway.

However the site is still there and HP are doing software localisation now rather than clicking computer components together.

A lot of the redundant engineers went out on their own and formed companies which are still around and doing well.

Some of the local suppliers followed the manufacturing abroad while retaining a Galway HQ and are now mini multinationals with operations in several countries rather than just local suppliers.

My big worry is that Limerick was struggling before this with unemployment, drugs and gangs. The loss of a few thousand jobs in a city of just 70K will push more people into poverty and all the associated problems.
 
It was just a joke really, if you ever see a post form me that blames the wrokers, assume its just a joke. yeah who knows what this is going to do tio Limerick, maybe they should just bow to the inevitable and hand the place over lock stock and barrell to the Keanes
 
So let me get this straight. Western European governments give money to the EU. This money goes to poor nations such as Poland. Poland uses this cash to cut taxes. These tax cuts entice businesses to move away from Western Europe and into Poland.

This is just redistribution of wealth on an EU scale. Supporters of the free market should not support such redistributive taxes, nor the anticompetitive, economically nationalist nature of EU-subsidised tax cuts.

Yes. I think that's also a big job of the EU, pushing the poorest countries up to the top.

EDIT: PS. Kill the CAP.

Hand me the shotgun!
 
Winner, 8% national unemployment in Poland? Really?

That's insanely low.

Romania is only at 3.60%... so what? With countries like Bangladesh and Belarus ahead, it's not really too much of a deal. :)

A rise or decrease in unemployment also depends on the structure of the country. For example, a heavily agricultural country will normally have lower unemployment than a heavily industrialized country, but that doesn't mean that the former has any economical advantage over the latter.
 
8% is super-amazing compared to the 20% or so we had a couple years ago!


do you have jobs for the hundreds of thousands who are about to arrive form Ireland and Britain? If not, its about to get quite a bit higher....
 
do you have jobs for the hundreds of thousands who are about to arrive form Ireland and Britain? If not, its about to get quite a bit higher....

Well, we need a "Kurwa, bedziesz mial dell!!" dude to appear in commercials, but that's only 1 job, I guess.
 
This should be banned inside the whole EU. If there is an economic union (much as I may dislike it), there must also be uniform rules for corporate taxation. Why should the private shareholders of Dell or any other corporation have it subsidized with public funds? Just because "everyone does it, and we must compete?". Ban it, and slap punitive duties on imports form countries doing it.

But I can't say I pity Ireland, they were doing the same thing.

Then we would basically go back to how things were before the union. The union is based on free trade and the fact that everyone benefits from it. Of course, everyone might not want growth, but that's another thing. Surely, without trade we wont have any growth.
 
So let me get this straight. Western European governments give money to the EU. This money goes to poor nations such as Poland. Poland uses this cash to cut taxes. These tax cuts entice businesses to move away from Western Europe and into Poland.

This is just redistribution of wealth on an EU scale. Supporters of the free market should not support such redistributive taxes, nor the anticompetitive, economically nationalist nature of EU-subsidised tax cuts.

1) Subsidies are overrated. EU money goes to infrastructure, education, research etc., it is not used to subsidize trans-national companies.

2) Redistribution of wealth is one of the key principles of the EU. The idea is that wealthier new members will also buy more products from Western Europe, plus of course the W. Euro. investments to new member countries will generate more revenues. Everybody profits.

EDIT: PS. Kill the CAP.

Yes, and then stop giving Palestinians european money:

The EU is the main donor to the Palestinians, having given three billion euros since 2000, Mr Michel said.

"Every year, we spend 600 to 700m euros. Today we decided on a supplementary payment of 60m euros."
 
Winner, 8% national unemployment in Poland? Really?

That's insanely low.

So the EU statistics say. It's a huuuge progress, unemployment has almost disappeared from most of Central Europe (at least compared to the late 1990s). It's a sign that the economy is successfuly re-structuring itself.

Now, it's about time we start killing the budget deficits. Well, not right now, but after this crisis is over. But I am afraid the socialists who will be in charge here after the next general elections will once again deepen the deficits - I mean, they had deficits when the economy was growing 6% a year, idiots.
 
not that i know any numbers, but couldnt it be that unemployment went down that much in poland because quite a lot of poles work outside of the country?
 
not that i know any numbers, but couldnt it be that unemployment went down that much in poland because quite a lot of poles work outside of the country?

Poland is a big country - almost 40 million people. Emmigration can hardly explain 12% drop in unemployment.

Also, this hardly explains the super-low unemployment in the Czech Rep., given that very few Czechs work abroad (we're too lazy and the difference in salaries is not so big as it used to be, so it's less profitable).

680px-EU_unemployment_march_2008.svg.png
 
Then we would basically go back to how things were before the union. The union is based on free trade and the fact that everyone benefits from it.

No we wouldn't The Union was about creating an internal market. I'm not proposing to restrict trade within the EU. But I am saying that that a single internal market requires a coordinated fiscal policy to prevent destructive competition between governments. The phenomenon is well known also from federal countries where state governments have fiscal authority (Brazil comes to mind).
I really don't trust the political groups more associated with the EU (it was always a tool for them, but that would be another discussion - and there are advantages to the union also). But we do have an European Union and a single market, so we better write the rules accordingly.

Of course, everyone might not want growth, but that's another thing. Surely, without trade we wont have any growth.

Free trade constrains "markets", the way people word and produce things. So do restrictions on trade. A wise policy will need to mix these policies as necessary, depending on the circumstances, which change over time. Slavish devotion to "free trade" always leads to crisis. Trade by itself is necessary for any economic system, simply because no one leading a modern lifestyle can be self-sufficient. But trade always has rules (i.e., there is and cannot be any "free market", that's a misnomer). The set of rules known as "fee market" (no restrictions or tariffs on most imports and exports, no control over capital flows, etc) are just one possible set of rules, and a fairly recent one too. Incidentally, "growth" as measured by GDP changes yoy has been much greater in Western Europe back in the pre-GATT and WTO days that it has been in the past few years. And the "growth" of the past few years is now about to collapse too!

This should also make people ask: what is "growth" anyway? If you are going to justify "free trade" with "it promotes growth" you'll need to explain what exactly is expected to grow, how it will grow thanks to the rules you support, and why the outcome you predict is desirable. I've seen lots of talk about growth from governments and economists, but they never get down to the details...
 
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