Depression: Rational or irrational?

[jarred!]

it means though that the source isn't examined by the sufferer in a manner which will lead to some degree of therapy.

This is true in all cases. Until the sufferer realizes a change needs to be made, no help will be sought. You are telling me people suffering from psychological problems don't ever seek help? This is incorrect.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

The world is not going to fundamentaly change in your lifetime, you say the things you enjoy are disappearing but, while they are still here, why not just focus on enjoying them instead of everything else? Or enjoying them while doing the small efforts you can that have personal meaning to you, regardless of it will prevent 1984.

Climate change likely will cause severe problems in the future, but not while anyone here is still alive.

Some of us have lived long enough to notice fundamental changes, both in society and in the climate.

As for climate change not causing severe problems while anyone here is still alive, see my weather thread. In one of the early posts, someone mentioned the killer heat waves in France. That's a severe problem that is definitely occurring while people here are alive.

you could move to like rural alberta or something. Plenty of trees and clean streams out there.

Instead of focusing so much on how the world sucks and everyone is destroying nature, why don't you instead try to be a positive force in the world to others? Like volunteer to help people who don't have basics like food and clothing, or others who need emotional support and guidance.

Depression is a mental health disorder, and you can't choose to be depressed. Telling a depressed person to be happy is going to hurt, not help them.

In the states it's very common to be blamed for being mentally ill. Blaming someone for contacting cancer seems outrageous, though. Having a genetic disorder (Down's syndrome, Klinefelter, low metabolism) is another example of medical victim blaming/shaming. None of these illnesses are choices.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Some of us have lived long enough to notice fundamental changes, both in society and in the climate.

You don't have to be that old to have observed the former.

As for the latter, I reject that people know as much about exactly how it will impact as is implied. For example Europe could wind up colder from GW, if the impact on the ice caps disrupts the Gulf Stream. That's still bad, but it's bad in a different way than expected and needs different preparation to minimize harm if it happens.

 

[Traitorfish]

All of this is missing the point. This isn't the "cheer up Phrossack" thread. I'm here to argue that depression does not automatically make one irrational, and that depression is an understandable and not unreasonable reaction to a state of affairs in which the things one needs for happiness are simply not possible.

I think this gestures towards something deeper, that we tend to treat any sort of mental illness or neurological divergence in purely pathological terms. The disconnect between the individual and their environment is consistently identified as originating in the individual, in their failure to respond correctly to that environment. The cog doesn't fit into the machine. The overall system, the rightness of the exception that the cog should fit, goes essentially unchallenged.

We have created an intensely hostile world for ourselves, and while some people may cope, it's not in the least bit surprising that a lot of people don't, and that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them, as individuals. We don't lock tigers in cages and, when they die, conclude that they must have been bad tigers.

 

[Phrossack]

For the record, I don't think Kyriakos was abusive towards me. He just doesn't see things the way I do.

OP has said he is not talking about clinical depression but rather a depressed feeling or outlook on life as a result of circumstances.

I guarantee you if you posted thing X that you needed to be happy we can find a way for you to get more of thing X. Like I said, if it's communing with nature, move. Go live somewhere surrounded by nature while it does indeed still exist. I agree with you that people sold into slavery or whatever can't actually do that, but since you clearly have access to the internet, it's highly unlikely you're one of these oppressed people who literally can't do anything to change your situation.

Or you can just be in a depressed state and accept it. But it sounds like you want others to validate your unhappiness. Why?

What I want is for people to acknowledge that being depressed is not anyone's fault, that depression is not some kind of personal failing but often a result of living in a bad situation, and most importantly, that being depressed does not mean I'm automatically irrational.

When I list pessimistic predictions of the future state of things, or pessimistic assessments of the way things are, I don't want people to say, "Depression warps your mind, I hope you overcome it and come to your senses." I want them to address my points no differently than if they came from a non-depressed person.

It's also worth noting that my mental health need to be in and near forests is endangered by climate change and deforestation. Between the logging, the heat waves and droughts, the wildfires in places that have never really had them, the invasive plants, and the tree-killing beetles with ever-longer active seasons, the future of forests is exceptionally bleak. But that's not the point of this thread.

I think this gestures towards something deeper, that we tend to treat any sort of mental illness or neurological divergence in purely pathological terms. The disconnect between the individual and their environment is consistently identified as originating in the individual, in their failure to respond correctly to that environment. The cog doesn't fit into the machine. The overall system, the rightness of the exception that the cog should fit, goes essentially unchallenged.

We have created an intensely hostile world for ourselves, and while some people may cope, it's not in the least bit surprising that a lot of people don't, and that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them, as individuals. We don't lock tigers in cages and, when they die, conclude that they must have been bad tigers.

Thank you! You've copied the thoughts out of my head! Humans are, deep down, wild animals that have domesticated and caged themselves. I've always compared this situation mentally to lions or other animals kept in cages, and people wondering why they're so sluggish and sickly. Animals need to feel the wind in their faces and the grass under their feet, and so do we, in a very real and non-metaphorical sense.

The modern world, for all its conveniences, is a hostile environment for the human animal. It is deeply alienating and isolating. Some people, like indoor cats, do fine outside their natural habitat. But many more people can't cope, and it's not proof of irrationality or failings on their part. It also doesn't mean their arguments can be dismissed for coming from "someone irrational."

 

[Valka D'Ur]

You don't have to be that old to have observed the former.

As for the latter, I reject that people know as much about exactly how it will impact as is implied. For example Europe could wind up colder from GW, if the impact on the ice caps disrupts the Gulf Stream. That's still bad, but it's bad in a different way than expected and needs different preparation to minimize harm if it happens.

This is why it's called climate change, rather than global warming. Not all the changes mean toward the warm end.

 

[bernie14]

.....poor lion....bad tiger....just victims of their environment.....aren't we all....

Spoiler :

cope1 /kōp/ Learn to pronounce verb gerund or present participle: coping (of a person) deal effectively with something difficult. "his ability to cope with stress" synonyms:manage, survive, subsist, look after oneself, fend for oneself, shift for oneself, stand on one's own two feet, carry on, get through, get on, get along, get by, muddle through, muddle along, scrape by, bear up, make the grade, come through, hold one's own, keep one's end up, keep one's head above water, keep the wolf from the door, weather the storm; informalmake out, hack it, paddle one's own canoe; informalrub along "her elderly parents can no longer cope alone" deal with, handle, manage, address, face, face up to, confront, tackle, sort out, take care of, take in hand, get to grips with, contend with, grapple with, wrestle with, struggle with, tussle with; put up with, get through, weather, endure, withstand, stand up to, bear, brave, accept, come to terms with; master, overcome, surmount, get over, get the better of, beat; informalstomach, swallow "the agency helps people to cope with bereavement" (of a machine or system) have the capacity to deal successfully with. "the roads are barely adequate to cope with the present traffic".

Think of it this way, if humanity survives climate change, it might yet return to its natural habitat. How that helps you..

 

[Phrossack]

.....poor lion....bad tiger....just victims of their environment.....aren't we all....

Spoiler :

cope1 /kōp/ Learn to pronounce verb gerund or present participle: coping (of a person) deal effectively with something difficult. "his ability to cope with stress" synonyms:manage, survive, subsist, look after oneself, fend for oneself, shift for oneself, stand on one's own two feet, carry on, get through, get on, get along, get by, muddle through, muddle along, scrape by, bear up, make the grade, come through, hold one's own, keep one's end up, keep one's head above water, keep the wolf from the door, weather the storm; informalmake out, hack it, paddle one's own canoe; informalrub along "her elderly parents can no longer cope alone" deal with, handle, manage, address, face, face up to, confront, tackle, sort out, take care of, take in hand, get to grips with, contend with, grapple with, wrestle with, struggle with, tussle with; put up with, get through, weather, endure, withstand, stand up to, bear, brave, accept, come to terms with; master, overcome, surmount, get over, get the better of, beat; informalstomach, swallow "the agency helps people to cope with bereavement" (of a machine or system) have the capacity to deal successfully with. "the roads are barely adequate to cope with the present traffic".

Think of it this way, if humanity survives climate change, it might yet return to its natural habitat. How that helps you..

Why are you even in this thread?

 

[bernie14]

did i need an invitation?

 

[Phrossack]

did i need an invitation?

You just seem to be contributing nothing, or less than nothing, is all. Everyone else is discussing, while you're just...there, seemingly offended by the very idea of this thread, taking potshots, and so on. It's just weird.

 

[bernie14]

Answer this for me, if everyone agreed with your viewpoint (s) and suddenly, global warming was much less a possible outcome, would you feel less depressed?

 

[Phrossack]

Answer this for me, if everyone agreed with your viewpoint (s) and suddenly, global warming was much less a possible outcome, would you feel less depressed?

Answer my questions first. Or don't. It's fairly clear why you're here, I just wanted you to say so.

 

[bernie14]

Really? You can read minds as well? You know my motivations? Why am i in thix thread?

Because i enjoy it. How bout answering my question?

 

[bernie14]

Its ok, you don't have to answer, but to the point of the thread, the concept that in order to feel better, everything and everyone around you has to change is both irrational AND narcissistic

 

[Phrossack]

Its ok, you don't have to answer, but to the point of the thread, the concept that in order to feel better, everything and everyone around you has to change is both irrational AND narcissistic

Seems you answered your own question. Incorrectly, of course, but your sole purpose here is to snipe at me, so we were never going to expect honest and productive discussion from someone with your history.

Now move along, little doggie

 

[bernie14]

Snipe at you? Nah, i would have said the same thing to anyone with the same thought process

 

[Phrossack]

Snipe at you? Nah, i would have said the same thing to anyone with the same thought process

Give that you're completely unable to ascertain what my thought process even is, I wouldn't count on it.

Stay if you like, little doggie, you're pretty funny!

 

[bernie14]

Wow, doggie twice, dehumanization is not a defense mechanism usually associated with depression but actually very common in narcissism

 

[bernie14]

And "little" doggie to boot!

 

[Berzerker]

You don't have to be that old to have observed the former.

As for the latter, I reject that people know as much about exactly how it will impact as is implied. For example Europe could wind up colder from GW, if the impact on the ice caps disrupts the Gulf Stream. That's still bad, but it's bad in a different way than expected and needs different preparation to minimize harm if it happens.

Recent research on the Younger Dryas - a period of Gulf Stream variability - suggests a 400 year lag between ocean current 'disruption' and atmospheric cooling, ie it takes time for cold meltwater entering the N Atlantic to change the climate. I think the research found at least 3 major cooling trends were preceded by conveyor belt disruptions.