Dirk's deity game

[Dirk1302]

Strictly speaking this one's not an open game, i'm going to do a walk through as Pacal II here on deity. So i just play and post what i think should be posted and I'll go into more detail than i'll usually do in open games.

Open games are my favorite, in this thread i still welcome shadows but just as Gliese i think shadows shouldn't go beyond the date i've played here and should be placed into spoilers. If you feel the sudden urge to play a deity game in one go play the ultimate challenge pt III.

Here's the start



The start is obviously ok, just as the ultimate challenge ptIII this is a remoulado map, meaning all the enemy capitals are at least 10 tiles (also diagonal away).

I'll probably start playing tomorrow afternoon. Dead tired now. Start is good and i'll probably settle in place. I welcome comments from all players on the forum here the more the merrier.

Also while not everyone is playing deity here keep in mind that my strict knowledge of the game is somewhat limited. I'm certainly not an expert on all kind of unit promotions for example. I remember a long discussion i once had with Civcorpse in one of Sisiutil's threads , while we didn't agree on how to continue i certainly picked up some important notions about units strenghts and weaknesses there. So don't withhold anything you think is smart because you think it's obvious to me, fair chance it isn't.

Thx again remoulado for creating this map.

 

[Rusten]

Looks like a solid start. Having a good barb defender that doesn't require a resource or a detour in techs is very helpful on deity as barbs play a big role in early game decision making -- much more so than on immortal, it can hardly be compared. (*)

With any luck you'll find gold somewhere (likely seeing all the desert around you) to boost your happiness and support many cities. Your capital will have have a lot of production for settlers (and you've got the barb safety already) so now you just need commerce to fuel REX.

(*) This is why I don't like playing scenario games/maps (LHC and similar) on deity because the barbarians hardly exist. It feels a little cheap to protect cities with warriors and not even have archery or a strategic resource in my network.

 

[Gliese 581]

Great, another online deity game I can partake in and be a little more casual about at the same time since I'm not in the spotlight this time, if I have time that is.
Pacal 2 is an awesome leader and the start looks solid so I hope to have a fighting chance here, you should ace it barring anything unforseen.

Moving the warrior SW seems best to me for a possible move to the south with the settler. Looks like a flood plain down there so might be gold available.

It would be great if you edited the OP for each round with links to the individual rounds, that way it's a little easier to shadow without accidentally gleaming any details from your game.

 

[Kwibuss]

Great! Looking forward following this thread. Just like Gliese's thread.

Always fun to follow Deity games, which are still far above my league

 

[DMOC]

It looks like you might have several floodplains nearby, so that's a good sign.

 

[Dirk1302]

I settle in place after moving the warrior 1s, start ag and pop half of the remainder from a hut some 5 turns later Start worker. We're expansive again so i play with the idea of immediately putting on a second worker after the first is finished. Decide against it this time. I want to grow asap to get out a settler.

Early tech,

3860 BC AG partially popped from hut.
3360 BC AH
3120 BC HU
2680 BC BW enabling the holkan.
2480 BC i found Lakhama, the warrior has revealed it's quiet in the south but crowded in other directions. Since i have access to holkans and barbs won't be such a problem in the area i want to settle i could put on a settler early. Lakhama is founded on a key spot:



2200 BC Pottery
1840 BC Writing i could set research to 0 now but since i have 3 close neighbours i like to have sailing too for the trade routes so:

1680 BC Fishing

1600 BC i capture Cherokee, Toku has conveniently weakened the city with a sword, i saw what happened there and reacted alert, next turn Toku would have captured it. Barbs have one unpromoted archer left in this screenshot.



1440 BC Sailing, now i set the slider to 0% waiting for libraries. But:

Blocking land






1320 BC



uh oh.

I'll need chopping power so research is put back on to math, am i glad i'm playing Pacal here.

This asks for a reaction but since i don't see any troop buildup right now i don't overdo it. Capital'll always have some time to emergency whip some units. Lakhama's built on a hill and won't fall easy. I take the precaution to put one turn in walls in both cities so i can whip this without penalty.

925 Math I have finished library in Mutal and put on scientists, slow building axes and spears now. Axes don't whip easy Swords are better in this respect, Cats and phants even more. I like units/buildings that are not a multiple of 30 hammers since they give overflow that can be used to finish things that're almost done.

800 HBR begin on stables in Mutal,Lakhama,Chicken Itza. Cherokee only gets barracks, it's going to provide cats through whipping.

Somewhere between 800 and 600 BC i lose an ivory square to Toku, as soon as he declares i'm going to take this hut out, with a suicide chariot if need be.

625 BC construction i put research back to 0% accumulating gold for the upcoming GS. Phants are put on queue, i'll be completely save from Toku if i have some 4 of those.

575 BC Toku declares and i've been a bit careless. No problem though i had seen this stack and i can handle it. Should have build a road 1 sw of Lakhama though for more mobility and stationed troops there. Now the 3 axes/1 spear need 2 moves to get to Lakhama.





Still enough to defend, he moves this stack out next turn and comes back with a bigger one next but now i'm ready.

550 BC GS in, research put back on, going alpha because Ham doesn't have it yet. questionable decision really. I had build a chariot, it pillages the ivory hut, i defend the chariot with an axe and a phant (a very strong combination) as there are not so much units in Nagoya. My phants'll rule from now on.

Success in war:





475 BC he's willing to talk peace already (remember he declared 575 BC). He wants Lakhama. I'm pretty sure he'll take HBR though. This gives me a problem, the war has hardly hurt me and i can get back to peaceful building easily with the good land i have.Then again as things are now this war doesn't hurt me at all, i could build some more phants and cats and at least take the 2 cities he's founded in my vicinity. If that goes really well and i could even take him out completely.I'm not too worried about economic recovery with all the gold and cottages i have. Drawback here is, i don't know how tough it'll be to take these 2 cities,more phants'll delay settling the rest and infra building, danger's falling into a stalemate war both of us losing out. if toku gets access to more advanced units (machinery) he might not be willing to talk peace anymore.

I have same power as Ham/Peri now, an attack on them would also have a good chance of success and can also be considered. What i don't want to do is agree to peace with Toku now then declare on him later
There's a good chance to get Pericles and Ham to friendly with all the trade advantages this brings. Getting negative modifiers for redeclaring on Toku doesn't help in this pursuit. So:

1. We fight on now. Definitely the most exciting option but a bit risky
2. Declare peace build up it's very likely that this leads to a relatively easy win as i'll be the big guy on my continent and the other continent won't be that advanced probably. Toku'll be backward somewhere in the future making him an easy prey. Ham and Peri can always be taken out in the endgame since they don't build enough units.
3. Declare peace and take out Peri or ham out early. Somehow i don't feel like doing this because

- I could get backstabbed by Toku in the proccess
- I lose a valuable friend instead of an isolationist.
- If it backfires the -3 you declared war on us hurts, Pericles has quite a bit
of time to whip units since it'll take me some time to get to his core.
In other words fighting on against Toku can cost us some if we don't make progress but we'll recover if we realize this in time. Fighting Peri/Ham could be easier but it more or less burns ships behind us. If that doesn't work
it's probably a game losing action.

I lean to 1 continuing the war proceeding with caution, it's the most exciting option. Since we'll want to win this game we'll have to keep a good watch at all times if we're really making progress. If i have to fight eventually with 20 units against 15 fortified units capturing a city while losing all my units that's not a success.So as soon as Toku gets a good stack together which he doesn't suicide immed we'll have to declare peace or go on defensive like we did until now. I see chances though since Phants are very strong and Toku doesn't have a counter at the moment i haven't seen one Toku spear btw. I have 0.6 * his power suggesting that this war is on.

Overview:









I haven't played any further than this so suggestions are welcome.

 

[Bleys]

(*) This is why I don't like playing scenario games/maps (LHC and similar) on deity because the barbarians hardly exist. It feels a little cheap to protect cities with warriors and not even have archery or a strategic resource in my network.

I can help you with that Rusten. If you tell me the series, I will convert the WB file into a save where the settings are correct for the Barbs and the AIs. Its not hard, but the only way I can figure out how to do it involves an unavoidable peek at the AIs in the game. Here is how it works.

Start the scenario with the settings you want, in this case Deity/Normal. On turn One, go into the WB, and give the Barbarian race the proper techs by hand (and any other races, if applicable). In order to do this, you have to scroll through the AIs in the game, though. "Barbarian" is the very last one.

Then, exit the WB, and re-save the file as a Save Game instead of a WB. I think its probably more realistic to have a friend do the conversion, and just link you back the save-game.

 

[CellKu]

Dirk, your details and screenshots are great. Thanks for making your thought process so transparent.

Some comments:

1.) I wouldn't want to fight with Ham and Peri now, since you will probably want some trading partners. On the other hand, Peri is already quite a bit into the tech tree. So, hopefully, you will have techs left that you can trade.

2.) Toku is a pain. He will likely redeclare later if you make peace now. I think I would try to take the 2 cities that are closest to you (Nag. and the next one up north) to reduce the line of defence. If I am not mistaken, Toku expands via the isthmus (since Ham occupies the west). So if you made peace after taking these two cities you would only have to station defenders in this one city to thward off future attacks by Toku. I am not sure, though, whether I would take more cities now, as they cost upkeep and it is questionable how well Toku has improved them.

3.) Well, it is not of much interest here, as you won all the battles around Lakamha. Just fyi: to facilitate counter attacks out of an attacked city, it is useful to chop all forests that directly border that city (before a war starts).
(In your screenshots I saw that Toku used the forest as protection during his attack on Lakamha. In case you had wanted to counter attack any units that had survived the attack it would have been easier without the forest.)

And a few questions:

1.) In your post you said: "I take the precaution to put one turn in walls in both cities so i can whip this without penalty." What do you mean with "without penalty"? You don't get a " " from that whipping?

2.) You mentioned chopping catas. Did you do your other troop buildup slowly or did you whip/chop there as well? On what basis do you decide whether you chop or not (except for emergency chops)? Raising an army quickly is something I still struggle with (when I cannot draft).

 

[ABigCivFan]

Dirk, nice game so far.

It is interesting you have so far used counters/offensive units for defending. I would suggest throw in some cheap archers as well. With CG promos and built in hill defend bonus, you can easily gain some hard-core defenders and they will defend better than any other units. Later upgrade the best to LB for added security.

There is not much danger fighting Toku, he is backwards, milk some GGs off him. A spy will be useful to check out his supply/defense, taking his ismus cities is an option, and start back filling cities is also a good option.

Good job on blocking, but watch out Hammi/Per sneak some galleys to settle your back yard land.

 

[Gliese 581]

No time to review right now, I played a shadow but got dowed by Toku around 1300-1200 bc and wasn't in a position to defend myself.

 

[Dirk1302]

@Cellku, haven't much time to react right now and i was slightly hurried writing the post so this was not in it. I agree that i should have chopped that forest. I had taken that precaution with the forest ne of Mutal and was quite annoyed in the game that i hadn't done it with Lakamha, just as i was annoyed about not making that road sw of Lakamha. Somehow while playing i thought he'd go for Mutal, also because Lakhama's on a hill so i didn't worry too much about that city since it has enormous natural defence. It's ok now, i certainly put some units on the forest myself now so i don't have this problem again.

Short reaction on the other points you raised:

1)Agreed
2) Toku'll probably become pleased because we share religion, i'll be much more advanced than he is in the future so i don't fear him anyway. I'm not afraid of the upkeep too however i have cottages and gold all over the place so i can take/settle whatever i want

- Whip without penalty, i meant without a production penalty whipping at 0 hammers.
- I have to check on precise army build up, i didn't whip any axe, i did build them while getting the GS with the squares i did work. i chopped a few but only after math and not too much since phants totally rule and a few axes/spears were enough imo.

@ABigCivFan, i don't have archery. You have a good point though i should have researched it when i saw Toku's wheoorn. Somehow i wasn't to worried about his attack since without cats he'd need a huge stack to take me out.

You're right it's time to settle the backland i'll have a few hundred years i guess/hope but it can't wait forever.So i think more troops and some settlers is the idea now, research can wait for a bit now since i have quite a few cottages and it's going ok now without effort.

 

[Dirk1302]

475 BC - 250 AD

I have played until 1070 AD, since i'm a bit tired and i don't want to cut down on detail i do a partial update until 250 AD.

World from above 475 BC



I decide to continue the war with caution. There'll come a time however that i need to commit to this war or make peace.

I have some unhappiness from all the whipping so Mutal and Lakhama are set to ballcourts. Mutal subsequently builds a scout which is going to be a medic III with a GG i got, then a spy as ABigCivfan suggested.

Cherokee's slowly building cats , i have cottages and a good mine to work there so i only whip when the city gets to working the relatively useless grass forest or when it gets unhappy.

Chicken itza is working 4 tiles for now, 2 resources and 2 gold mines, i'll grow it later when i have more tiles improved, for now it helps with maintenance and some production.

Uxmal's still very small, it'll be strong in the future with 3 spices around. It's building a granary now.

I was researching alpha, a bit of a gambit. Col would have been the solid way to proceed. However Peri already had Col. Alpha helps with currency and maybe i strike lucky with Ham.

This Gambit comes off, Ham hasn't researched into Alpha as of yet, i now trade it together with HBR for Calender, a tech that's very useful to me.I subsequently trade HBR for iron and 50 gold with Peri. Since i have both prerequisites it seems correct to go for currency next. Not much trade value here but a very useful tech accelerating Col and Cs. After Currency i go Col/CS. As it is i get monarchy for currency from Ham.

In the meantime Toku sends in more stacks.I have roaded the forest north of Lakhama posting a big mobile stack of units on it. Despite the fact Toku has cats and he uses them to weaken my forest stack he loses all his units everytime, simply because not all my units are affected by the collateral. Sometimes he goes for the city but as soon as he arrives there i take out the majority of his stack with my phants.

Big battles at the turn of the millenium.

First stack:



The one behind:



War results:



As if nothing happened:



I refrain from invading him for the moment seeing how much units he's throwing at me, i simply don't have the power to do this. If i set 15 units before Nagoya now slowly bombarding the city he'll just turtle there with 15 units of his own. So i quietly accumulate more units in my stack inviting him to suicide more units. Sometimes i take a look with my spy near Nagoya to see how much units there are. Don't invade deeper now since i don't want to lose the spy.

Despite all the attacks the power situation doesn't change, my power remains at 0.6 ~ 0.7. Tech wise Toku's almost completely stalling though.

Around 50 BC i put the war on hold setting 3 cities to settler building, i don't know when Ham and Peri will come with galley's to my backlands but i want to be ready when they do.

I'll post them near the locations in this dotmap with city 1 already settled.



Nothing much happens next until 250 AD, CS is ready, set research to poly/aest/lit to enable HE building on the city 1 spot. Traded CS for Feud/MC and some gold right away

I'm done building settlers around 200 AD (got 4) and resume unit building. Finally i'm ready to besiege Nagoya, it's lightly defended atm but once i'm done bombarding he'll probably have moved in some of the units near the spy.
I have 4 spare units in Mutal though that i can move to Nagoya in 2 turns so i should be able to take it.

Nagoya:



Tokyo:



I'm heading for paper. I don't think lib's still on as i'm nowhere near a second GS. I can part trade paper for machinery later though, i expect this tech to come up in trade very soon.

After Nagoya i'll call a one sided truce (not peace) to take out the barb city in the south while researching engineering. Then i'll be back for Tokyo. It seems to be going very well but on a more subtle level this war is a costly affair, i'll elaborate on this in my next post.

Overview:



Tech's going reasonably well with a research rate just below 200 bpt at no loss, could have been higher in peaceful times though. It'll go down once i seriously invade Japan since supply costs and ww 'll set in. Toku's stuck in the stone age.



Rest of the screens's not that interesting, Hindu lovefest all over, i have 10 gpt incoming from resource deals. No happy/health problems.

Cities, Lakhama and certainly Uxmal need to be whipped now.













Kill stats

13 swords
5 axes
7 spears
4 archers
19 chariots
17 cats
---------
65 units

But i lost units too

1 axe that i left carelessly in the woods in range of a chariot. On defence an axe always dies against a chariot even in the woods.Lost a phant that attacked at > 90% odds. And another phant, don't know what happened to it anymore.
Some of my phants have > 20 xp already.

 

[Vox Dei]

I settle in place after moving the warrior 1s, start ag and pop half of the remainder from a hut some 5 turns later Start worker. We're expansive again so i play with the idea of immediately putting on a second worker after the first is finished. Decide against it this time. I want to grow asap to get out a settler.

Early tech,

3860 BC AG partially popped from hut.
3360 BC AH
3120 BC HU
2680 BC BW enabling the holkan.

What is the worker going to do after irrigating the rice?

(Well, you getting AG from the hut changes my question to what will the worker do after pasturing the cow?)

How can you play at this level without barb protection early?
(It seems most people crank out at least 4 troops early?)

 

[Dirk1302]

- Worker built a camp after pasturing the cow, did a bit of sightseeing/fogbusting near lakhama before returning to chop duties when BW was in. This was the reason that i didn't put a second worker on queue directly but grew the city.

- The earliest date i've seen barbs enter is 2560 BC so i always had time to whip one Holkan at least, another one shortly after which is enough. Also it was crowded in the vicinity and north of Lakhama, a massive barbarian invasion could only arise from the south. Valiant worker didn't see much barbs there.

 

[Vox Dei]

- Worker built a camp after pasturing the cow, did a bit of sightseeing/fogbusting near lakhama before returning to chop duties when BW was in. This was the reason that i didn't put a second worker on queue directly but grew the city.

- The earliest date i've seen barbs enter is 2560 BC so i always had time to whip one Holkan at least, another one shortly after which is enough. Also it was crowded in the vicinity and north of Lakhama, a massive barbarian invasion could only arise from the south. Valiant worker didn't see much barbs there.

Thank you for the explanation. I would have thought timing working to size 2 while building a warrior would have been the way to go before the worker build.

A sightseeing/fogbusting worker?!?! Where can I buy bulletproof vests like you have for your workers?

 

[Dirk1302]

I hate unimproved tiles, most of what is produced is eaten too, leaving only a spare hammer/food/commerce to work with. Pacal's expansive so i can produce the first worker quite fast with the forested plain hill, this hill effectively produces 4 hammers while making the worker. I was able to improve 3 tiles fast subsequently.

Compare a city at size 1 with one irrigated corn to a city with 4 unimproved grasslands. The irrigated corn city's much better in building workers/settlers than the size 4 grass city. If the size 4 city's grasslands are not on a river exactly everything that is produced is eaten too.

My workers don't need vests . It's completely save to wander around also with unprotected settlers as long as you don't use up all the movement, once you come adjacent to a barb retreat.

 

[Vox Dei]

My workers don't need vests . It's completely save to wander around also with unprotected settlers as long as you don't use up all the movement, once you come adjacent to a barb retreat.

Umm, is it some smelly, magical ointment then that protects your workers from panthers?

 

[Dirk1302]

That's a good point, hadn't seen animals for a while though and wasn't really in the neighbourhood of jungle iirc. A wolf in the woods could have been. Checked how far i ventured,i was always save.
Screenshot also shows that it's crowded in the neighbourhood.

 

[Vox Dei]

I have tried to equal your early play several times. (Not that I can play at this level: Just hoping to improve my play. Improving early play first seems a sensible priority!)

My warrior usually dies to an archer about the time he finds the FP, gold city site. (And the village to the SE yields a map. lol)

In any case, thank you for sharing your game!

 

[Dirk1302]

Thx, fogbusting with workers's not an essential skill. I think starting with a worker's important though. In the other challenge i'm playing i was expansive too and there were enough tiles to improve, there i only grew to 2 when the first worker had irrigated a corn, second worker was halfway finished by then. Basic rule's avoid working unimproved tiles, that's also why in my last post Uxmal has to be whipped, it's working an unimproved grass.Not whipping there now is simply throwing 60 hammers out of the window for very little return since the city'll rapidly grow back.

I was happy with the warrior staying alive so long actually, i try to protect them as much as possible by ending in woods/on hills whenever possible. Sometimes they meet bears or archers though, their future's very uncertain in those cases.