Tani Coyote
Son of Huehuecoyotl
- Joined
- May 28, 2007
- Messages
- 15,191
Inspired by the Evidence for Creationism thread, which is increasingly a "on the Nature of God" thread.
There are many arguments against God, but plenty against fallibility or lack of logic in his exact qualities. His four qualities, roughly, are: omnibenevolence, omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence.
Omnibenevolence - Many arguments state God makes no sense as an omnibenevolent figure given his history to punish or the fact he'll send you to Hell for all eternity for something as simple as not believing in him.
My responses:
1. The punishments given could easily be metaphors unless we're taking the Bible literally
2. Killing you is probably a relatively light punishment to God since you just go to an afterlife anyway. To him, it's probably more like exile(from Earth) than death.
3. Some - like myself - believe God doesn't judge based on faith at all, but solely on your acts as a person, not a believer
Omnipotence - Many argue God's omnipotence makes no sense he does not alleviate suffering or strike down evil such as Satan on the spot despite his clear distaste for it.
My response:
1. If God were to not allow evil to exist, then there'd be no choice for humanity. He might as well force us all to believe in him, since it would make just as much sense. It's pointless to have free will if you're not given choices. Therefore, God decides to take the lesser of two evils and create/allow evil.
2. God uses evil to tempt us away from him. It's easy to lose sight of his virtue or even abandon faith in the face of earthly pressures. Accordingly, God allows his nemesis, the Devil, to have his way despite the fact he could easily swipe him aside. This assuming Satan is indeed evil incarnate and not just a fallen angel and/or an agent of God(someone has to do the dirty work, just like the Grimreaper).
Omniscience -
The past is and the present has been, so God knows everything in these two dimensions without flaw. His knowledge of good and evil is absolute. As is his understanding of all things science will eventually discover for mankind.
Now, for the future...
If the future was written, free will kind of loses its purpose, just as if evil did not exist. Without this predestination, free will is respected by a creator who does not know the exact future, only the many possible futures. God will try to guide us towards the best possible future, but of course, we are free to disobey.
He may see a young person changing the world for better or worse with his talents, but he doesn't know just yet which future it will be. Accordingly, he would try to steer them towards the good future.
The lack of knowledge might somewhat impair his omniscient label, but not by much as he still knows all possible futures and the possible consequences of all actions. Indeed, it probably makes things more entertaining for him, knowing his children can do so many things.
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Omnipresence doesn't really have any argument against it beyond the simple belief that he does not exist so therefore could not be omnipresent.
For what it's worth, I'm not really religious, but keenly interested in the supernatural from the lowest spirit all the way up to the divine.
Where do you stand? What things don't seem to make sense in regards to God? Do you have any explanations for those things?
Edit: In a summary, the purpose of this thread is meant to be arguments against/for the qualities of God. While the Judeo-Christian God is the base of the discussion, other concepts of the divine are also welcome to be discussed.
One can list qualities and their reasoning, people can then debate that if they feel so inclined, and then others can in turn try to defeat the criticism.
Of course, remaining civil and keeping this from being a religion bashing thread would be appreciated.
There are many arguments against God, but plenty against fallibility or lack of logic in his exact qualities. His four qualities, roughly, are: omnibenevolence, omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence.
Omnibenevolence - Many arguments state God makes no sense as an omnibenevolent figure given his history to punish or the fact he'll send you to Hell for all eternity for something as simple as not believing in him.
My responses:
1. The punishments given could easily be metaphors unless we're taking the Bible literally
2. Killing you is probably a relatively light punishment to God since you just go to an afterlife anyway. To him, it's probably more like exile(from Earth) than death.
3. Some - like myself - believe God doesn't judge based on faith at all, but solely on your acts as a person, not a believer
Omnipotence - Many argue God's omnipotence makes no sense he does not alleviate suffering or strike down evil such as Satan on the spot despite his clear distaste for it.
My response:
1. If God were to not allow evil to exist, then there'd be no choice for humanity. He might as well force us all to believe in him, since it would make just as much sense. It's pointless to have free will if you're not given choices. Therefore, God decides to take the lesser of two evils and create/allow evil.
2. God uses evil to tempt us away from him. It's easy to lose sight of his virtue or even abandon faith in the face of earthly pressures. Accordingly, God allows his nemesis, the Devil, to have his way despite the fact he could easily swipe him aside. This assuming Satan is indeed evil incarnate and not just a fallen angel and/or an agent of God(someone has to do the dirty work, just like the Grimreaper).
Omniscience -
The past is and the present has been, so God knows everything in these two dimensions without flaw. His knowledge of good and evil is absolute. As is his understanding of all things science will eventually discover for mankind.
Now, for the future...
If the future was written, free will kind of loses its purpose, just as if evil did not exist. Without this predestination, free will is respected by a creator who does not know the exact future, only the many possible futures. God will try to guide us towards the best possible future, but of course, we are free to disobey.
He may see a young person changing the world for better or worse with his talents, but he doesn't know just yet which future it will be. Accordingly, he would try to steer them towards the good future.
The lack of knowledge might somewhat impair his omniscient label, but not by much as he still knows all possible futures and the possible consequences of all actions. Indeed, it probably makes things more entertaining for him, knowing his children can do so many things.
---
Omnipresence doesn't really have any argument against it beyond the simple belief that he does not exist so therefore could not be omnipresent.
For what it's worth, I'm not really religious, but keenly interested in the supernatural from the lowest spirit all the way up to the divine.
Where do you stand? What things don't seem to make sense in regards to God? Do you have any explanations for those things?
Edit: In a summary, the purpose of this thread is meant to be arguments against/for the qualities of God. While the Judeo-Christian God is the base of the discussion, other concepts of the divine are also welcome to be discussed.
One can list qualities and their reasoning, people can then debate that if they feel so inclined, and then others can in turn try to defeat the criticism.
Of course, remaining civil and keeping this from being a religion bashing thread would be appreciated.