DMOC's DEITY Game #1 - Gandhi
- Thread starter DMOC
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royal62184
Prince
Just wanting some clarification on this statement. The amount you get from a bulb (if it doesn't give you the whole tech) is dependent on your civilization population at that time? If that is true do you know the relationship between bulbing amount vs population. I play on immortal and I never knew this, I just always bulb eduction as soon as I get the GS, but it sounds like sometimes I may want to wait to bulb it.
Also in your experience at diety do you not wage wars till cavalry or rifleman? Usually on immortal I try to get in a war at around catapults, and very seldomly war earlier than that unless I have a great UU that comes early like immortals. I know everything is situational but in a majority of your diety games do you find yourself not declaring war till industrial era? Just wondering. Thanks for the advice.
DMOC
Mathematician
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For your first question, yes. My Great Scientist bulbed maybe 10-15 extra beakers due to pouplation increases. The difference is very small, though, so bulbing Education as soon as you get your Great Scientist would hardly be game-breaking.
I don't have enough games on deity to answer this, but my plan is for riflemen. The reason is that waging a war earlier is much more difficult because of the AI production bonuses. It's usually best to use the early/medieval period of the game as a time of technological advancements so you can get riflemen BEFORE your opponents and use Nationhood to help raise an army.
I don't have enough games on deity to answer this, but my plan is for riflemen. The reason is that waging a war earlier is much more difficult because of the AI production bonuses. It's usually best to use the early/medieval period of the game as a time of technological advancements so you can get riflemen BEFORE your opponents and use Nationhood to help raise an army.
I think you're in good shape (as good as can be hoped for on Deity), and the plan sounds right. The only thing I question is some of the cheaper techs you took in trade. Sailing and Monotheism? Ask for more cash if you can get it, or just take a more lopsided trade, but I don't think these are worth the WFYABTA hit.
Can either Wang or Cyrus be bribed into Judaism? It seems to have spread to many of their cities....
Can either Wang or Cyrus be bribed into Judaism? It seems to have spread to many of their cities....
And, did you give any thought to Sankore, since you got Paper first and have Stone? I would have sunk some hammers into it, and if they later turn into gold that's fine too. If not, I think it's better to research Paper the slow way, saving the GS to double-bulb Education. At least that's true on Immortal -- Paper is somewhat smaller than the 'bulb, so some potential beakers are wasted.
Artichoker
Emperor
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It's great to see this thread alive and going again.
I'm not sure whether I can give any advice on this level, but I do have a few observations:
1) Gandhi is Spiritual. This means that short-term civics like Nationhood are especially good...it means that you don't need a Golden Age to get maximum benefit out of a short-term civics change. So, yes, I agree that Nationalism is very good in this situation.
2) You make a good point that diplomatic factors are often more important than economic factors when choosing civics. Being an avid user of Vassalage myself, even I was surprised to see a 6-city empire build only 1 military unit and still be in Vassalage. Sometimes favorite civic bonuses climb up to very high levels. Once I got a +5 bonus toward some leader in a recent game I was playing.
3) It looks like you're running an SE now. Like another poster mentioned, Rifling has several prerequisites that are beaker-intensive. Liberalism and tech-trading can only get you so far. With Spiritual and Philosophical as your two traits, you don't have one solid economic trait like Financial or Organized that can really help you go the extra mile research-wise. But Liberalism itself opens up Free Speech, which is extremely effective in boosting research, provided that you have enough towns. I think it would be beneficial to do some kind of transition toward that type of economy.
I'm not sure whether I can give any advice on this level, but I do have a few observations:
1) Gandhi is Spiritual. This means that short-term civics like Nationhood are especially good...it means that you don't need a Golden Age to get maximum benefit out of a short-term civics change. So, yes, I agree that Nationalism is very good in this situation.
2) You make a good point that diplomatic factors are often more important than economic factors when choosing civics. Being an avid user of Vassalage myself, even I was surprised to see a 6-city empire build only 1 military unit and still be in Vassalage. Sometimes favorite civic bonuses climb up to very high levels. Once I got a +5 bonus toward some leader in a recent game I was playing.
3) It looks like you're running an SE now. Like another poster mentioned, Rifling has several prerequisites that are beaker-intensive. Liberalism and tech-trading can only get you so far. With Spiritual and Philosophical as your two traits, you don't have one solid economic trait like Financial or Organized that can really help you go the extra mile research-wise. But Liberalism itself opens up Free Speech, which is extremely effective in boosting research, provided that you have enough towns. I think it would be beneficial to do some kind of transition toward that type of economy.
SnowlyWhite
Emperor
UoS without bureau was far fetched anyway; but the 190 ad gm is worrisome especially since I understand no GGs were born in distant lands...
Dirk1302
Deity
You're in a reasonable position, a few things i would have done differently, some mentioned by lilnev/artichoker already.
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I would certainly have cottaged this capital and run buro, the capital would have made quite a lot of beakers in that case making a bid for rifling easier. you would have had a bit less capacity for scientists but you could have run run them at food decifit and have researched paper manually. As it is you have a good research rate now but it won't grow that much in the coming 1000 years. Being philo doesn't mean everything has to be farmed imo. Then again you can now whip units in the capital later. With philo and pacifism you have +200% on the gpp already, still building NE in capital would be a handsome extra boost.
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With only 3 trade partners i wouldn't have traded for sailing/mono you need to be able for things like engineering/guilds etc later. Didn't getting sailing so late cost you trade routes btw?
But apart from this you played well i think, i'm not so sure about the plan now not because the situation is desperate but you have quite a few options, a few considerations:
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I think you need to make a decision on whom to attack, as it is now i think it has to be Cyrus, you can continue trade with Ram who is friendly with you. If Ram is to be the victim you should convert to conf imo and get Cyrus to friendly for further trade.
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This is a continents map meaning meeting the others is very important, after a trade for machinery it might be be wise to make research/trade for optics a priority, it's often worth it. They'll be fairly backward but they often do have things like engineering. If you manage to get to astro somewhere that'll be huge but it's off route, if you hold of on gunpowder you can bulb it making the farm decision in capital look better. Optics won't take too much time but it's off the main route. One thing to keep in mind in this respect, i haven't read it anywhere in the code and it maybe coincidence but in my games Cyrus often goes astro early.To get it from him he'd have to be friendly of course.I believe optics will be 5-6 turns after trade for machinery and i think you'll get these turns back with interest.If they're really backward you can just go ahead and take them out.
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The path to rifling is long, it depends a bit on how much you can still trade but it's likely that you'll have to self research at least gunpowder/replaceable parts/rifling. PP can be bulbed. You need to trade for guilds/engineering, and probably banking (cheap anyway). I think it'll take you ~ 40 turns to get there once lib is in ~500 AD. So that would be attack around ~1150 AD. A bit late, it would be better if you could shave some turns off.
Alternatively you could go for a steel beeline, you'd have to self research gunpowder/steel (well may take gunpowder from lib) in that case. Chemistry will be bulbed. Definitely shorter, only the value of the drafted units won't be that good. Stack will need more protection also from pikes but cannons bombard faster than trebs and they have a long lifespan, they tear rifles apart too, trebs against rifles doesn't do to well though. I think you can get here shortly after 1000 AD if you're able to get enough gss. Much better than 1150 AD.
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Obviously constitution would help your game, probably not so much that you should beeline it though. I wonder what to take from lib, you can probably get nationalism in trade once you need it. Problem is to get to the goodies like chemistry or replaceable parts you need to trade for machinery and you only have education to offer. Nationalism allows taj and it's good trade fodder. But you don't have marble and with all the farms + spiritual the GA won't be so effective. So i doubt this is really worth it. If you take nationalism trade it soon, it'll give you good modifiers from fair trade and you want the others to research constitution soon. But i think there might be a case for gunpowder here.
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To boost research, building the universities + oxford would help, not as much as with a cottaged capital though, maybe oxford should even be build in Paliputra. You can move the capital to that city using Delhi as gpp fram with NE. It's a lot of hammers though and you may find yourself lacking time not in research but in building up troops now.
Not really a detailed plan, depends a bit on what the others do next turns as well. You need to watch their research closely. If the other continent is really backward btw taking them out instead of your own continent is definitely an option. I have played at least one game on deity where i did just that, 7 cities, couldn't really get an advantage on my own continent but slaughtered the other in ~50 turns fighting mostly rifles/cannons against lbs.
Edit: I can hardly believe the GM can be from economics, only 3 civs on the other continent, no human to canalize trade and it's only 250 AD.Haven't followed gs's built on the other continent but surely this is from GLH or some other merchant wonder (don't know by heart which wonders give merchant gpp)
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I would certainly have cottaged this capital and run buro, the capital would have made quite a lot of beakers in that case making a bid for rifling easier. you would have had a bit less capacity for scientists but you could have run run them at food decifit and have researched paper manually. As it is you have a good research rate now but it won't grow that much in the coming 1000 years. Being philo doesn't mean everything has to be farmed imo. Then again you can now whip units in the capital later. With philo and pacifism you have +200% on the gpp already, still building NE in capital would be a handsome extra boost.
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With only 3 trade partners i wouldn't have traded for sailing/mono you need to be able for things like engineering/guilds etc later. Didn't getting sailing so late cost you trade routes btw?
But apart from this you played well i think, i'm not so sure about the plan now not because the situation is desperate but you have quite a few options, a few considerations:
*
I think you need to make a decision on whom to attack, as it is now i think it has to be Cyrus, you can continue trade with Ram who is friendly with you. If Ram is to be the victim you should convert to conf imo and get Cyrus to friendly for further trade.
*
This is a continents map meaning meeting the others is very important, after a trade for machinery it might be be wise to make research/trade for optics a priority, it's often worth it. They'll be fairly backward but they often do have things like engineering. If you manage to get to astro somewhere that'll be huge but it's off route, if you hold of on gunpowder you can bulb it making the farm decision in capital look better. Optics won't take too much time but it's off the main route. One thing to keep in mind in this respect, i haven't read it anywhere in the code and it maybe coincidence but in my games Cyrus often goes astro early.To get it from him he'd have to be friendly of course.I believe optics will be 5-6 turns after trade for machinery and i think you'll get these turns back with interest.If they're really backward you can just go ahead and take them out.
*
The path to rifling is long, it depends a bit on how much you can still trade but it's likely that you'll have to self research at least gunpowder/replaceable parts/rifling. PP can be bulbed. You need to trade for guilds/engineering, and probably banking (cheap anyway). I think it'll take you ~ 40 turns to get there once lib is in ~500 AD. So that would be attack around ~1150 AD. A bit late, it would be better if you could shave some turns off.
Alternatively you could go for a steel beeline, you'd have to self research gunpowder/steel (well may take gunpowder from lib) in that case. Chemistry will be bulbed. Definitely shorter, only the value of the drafted units won't be that good. Stack will need more protection also from pikes but cannons bombard faster than trebs and they have a long lifespan, they tear rifles apart too, trebs against rifles doesn't do to well though. I think you can get here shortly after 1000 AD if you're able to get enough gss. Much better than 1150 AD.
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Obviously constitution would help your game, probably not so much that you should beeline it though. I wonder what to take from lib, you can probably get nationalism in trade once you need it. Problem is to get to the goodies like chemistry or replaceable parts you need to trade for machinery and you only have education to offer. Nationalism allows taj and it's good trade fodder. But you don't have marble and with all the farms + spiritual the GA won't be so effective. So i doubt this is really worth it. If you take nationalism trade it soon, it'll give you good modifiers from fair trade and you want the others to research constitution soon. But i think there might be a case for gunpowder here.
*
To boost research, building the universities + oxford would help, not as much as with a cottaged capital though, maybe oxford should even be build in Paliputra. You can move the capital to that city using Delhi as gpp fram with NE. It's a lot of hammers though and you may find yourself lacking time not in research but in building up troops now.
Not really a detailed plan, depends a bit on what the others do next turns as well. You need to watch their research closely. If the other continent is really backward btw taking them out instead of your own continent is definitely an option. I have played at least one game on deity where i did just that, 7 cities, couldn't really get an advantage on my own continent but slaughtered the other in ~50 turns fighting mostly rifles/cannons against lbs.
Edit: I can hardly believe the GM can be from economics, only 3 civs on the other continent, no human to canalize trade and it's only 250 AD.Haven't followed gs's built on the other continent but surely this is from GLH or some other merchant wonder (don't know by heart which wonders give merchant gpp)
JammerUno
King
Why would you want to vassalise Rammesses? He has 7 cities and a small compact empire, this makes for a fast war. Taking all his land will put you in a great position for an infantry/artillery war against the other two AIs later on. After taking 3 cities, which would be the minimum for his capitulation, including his capital, I don't see him putting up much of a fight anyway.
With only 6 cities it will be hard to get oxford running early, you'll need a university in every city, which could mean you're through RP aready when it finishes. This means you'll want to consider other options for making this war happen earlier. Getting gunpowder and starting on a sizeable force of musketmen maybe. I'm no expert on GM trademission returns, or the cost of upgrading them to rifles, but IIRC it's 155 gold per musketman. A GM might bring in 3000 gold, enough for 18 upgrades, and he's easily obtained, looking at your capital, 11 turns running 5 merchants will get one. That might shave off 6-7 turns of the time of declaring war, which could make the difference between a succesful blitz and a drawn out war.
With only 6 cities it will be hard to get oxford running early, you'll need a university in every city, which could mean you're through RP aready when it finishes. This means you'll want to consider other options for making this war happen earlier. Getting gunpowder and starting on a sizeable force of musketmen maybe. I'm no expert on GM trademission returns, or the cost of upgrading them to rifles, but IIRC it's 155 gold per musketman. A GM might bring in 3000 gold, enough for 18 upgrades, and he's easily obtained, looking at your capital, 11 turns running 5 merchants will get one. That might shave off 6-7 turns of the time of declaring war, which could make the difference between a succesful blitz and a drawn out war.
Surprised Ramesses isn't gobbled up yet. You're playing epic speed. You had a lot of raw commerce (gold/rivers) to support an army. WK/Cyrus were engaged in a fight already. Your closest neighbour (with great land I might add), Ramesses, hardly makes units and to top it off you have elephants. You had a huge happy cap with several luxury resources (+ the opportunity of trading for some) and cheap temples to allow a lot of whipping.
I don't understand why you let this opportunity slip away. You could have like 20% of the worlds land by 300 AD. I know Ramesses had ivory as well, but you'd be the attacker with siege so his elephants would lose to yours (no defensive bonus). WEs are insane, it would be a cakewalk.
You're still doing OK, I just found it funny because I've seen you make a lot of posts about how you're supposed to play and alter your strategy to the map rather than decide before-hand. In this game you're missing out on a lot of good stuff due to blindly following the "mainstream/cookie-cutter" aesthetics -> liberalism -> draft riflemen strategy. You could've decided the game to your favour by now.
I don't understand why you let this opportunity slip away. You could have like 20% of the worlds land by 300 AD. I know Ramesses had ivory as well, but you'd be the attacker with siege so his elephants would lose to yours (no defensive bonus). WEs are insane, it would be a cakewalk.
You're still doing OK, I just found it funny because I've seen you make a lot of posts about how you're supposed to play and alter your strategy to the map rather than decide before-hand. In this game you're missing out on a lot of good stuff due to blindly following the "mainstream/cookie-cutter" aesthetics -> liberalism -> draft riflemen strategy. You could've decided the game to your favour by now.
DMOC
Mathematician
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Neither Wang nor Cyrus can be bribed. All 3 leaders founded their own religions so they will almost certainly stick to it no matter what.
I was surprised at the lack of WFYABTA so I felt that it was safe to take the trades (and I took Sailing so I could get Calendar the following turn). Now Wang's in WFYABTA. Maybe I shouldn't have done some of those trades. You do have a point.
You can only open a locked modified asset save if your settings are exactly the same as mine. My game with locked modified asset was saved with a different patch or had different mods than this curent game so I couldn't open it.
I did sink hammers into UoS (in Pataliputra). The UoS was built in a distant land in 250 AD (the same turn the round ended), so I switched Pataliputra's build to a regular university for the +3 culture and science boost.
Also, 2 scientists double bulbing education also waste about 500 beakers as well with my population.
Yeah, I should probably be building some more catapults to prepare for the war (the catapults can "join" the trebuchets), especially since they'll be getting 5 experience points. The thing is that I want my cities to have plenty of infrastructure and room for happiness (for the drafting).
A transition to a Cottage Economy. I'll think about that. That was my actual plan, but I was thinking about waiting until Democracy, although it's certainly not a bad idea to start the transition now. I don't want to switch away from Vassalage at this moment (it's getting me a crucial +2 and +3 diplomatic points with Cyrus right now) to Free Speech.
There was 1 Great General born on the other continent, about 400-100 BC.
The reason I farmed the capital was that it looked like the best candidate for a Great Person city. Of course, this won't always be the case as it's certainly best suited for cottaging. Building the National Epic will take a while so I'm hesitant to spend so many turns building it when we already have Philosophical and Pacifism.
Sailing did not cost me any trade routes. I built a road from Pataliputra to Cy's citiy of Tarsus (I event built a road IN that city
) and connected Pataliputra to the rest of my cities so there were plenty of foreign trade routes.I am considering attacking Cyrus. I doubt I can get him to Friendly even if I convert to Confucianism since I have some demerits with him already. For Ram, I should be able to remain at Friendly as long as he doesn't switch out of Judaism.
I wasn't planning on getting Optics, but as you point out, it's important. It seems that none of my continent mates have Optics (Ram has Compass). I'll have to find a way to stick it in there (maybe a trade with Ram for Machinery and Compass? Or a trade with Cy first since he's more likely to hit WFYABTA sooner).
My goal is rifling by 1000 AD. I probably won't get that but 1150 AD wouldn't be too bad. My next Great Scientist will probably be used to bulb part of Printing Press.
I would prefer to take Nationalism. It's the most expensive tech I can take as the prize and it WILL be good trade material because no other AI has it at the moment. It's also crucial since it enables the Nationhood civic later on and saves me on a crucial tech to a riflemen war (it's not a prerequisite or anything, but the civic it unlocks is important). I'm not going to bother building the Taj Mahal instead. I can self-research a cheaper tech like Gunpowder more easily.
When you suggest a cannon war do you mean cannon with macemen? I can get 2 Great Scientists to bulb Printing Press and Chemistry each (is Printing Press needed?).
The Great Lighthouse WAS built on the other continent. There have been several (maybe 2-3) Great Scientists born on the other continent. The most recent Great Person for Ram was a Great Prophet and the most recent Great Person for either WK or Cy was a Spy (I think they both got one, if I'm not mistaken). Also, the Great Merchant was born on 190 AD, not 250 AD.
DMOC
Mathematician
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I suppose I could, well, "gobble" him up all the way.
DMOC
Mathematician
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The reason I did this was because:
-I am new to this difficulty level and I don't feel comfortable starting a war so early.
-WK/CY only warred once and Cy has repeatedly been getting back to "Cautious" with me. A war with Ram could have put me in grave danger since Cy has been "Friendly" with Ram as well as "Pleased" for quite a while (blame the Organized Religion civic) and Ram has plenty of techs to bribe. EDIT: Wang has also been pleased with Ram.
-I almost never use War Elephants. Yes, I probably should start trying them out, but for some reason they've hardly ever come up in my games. I see some games with WE here but I need to use them myself to really understand them.
This was an option, I'll admit, but I didn't take advantage of it. Maybe I can play with Caesar on deity for an early war.
Dirk1302
Deity
@DMOC,
I meant a cannon war with drafted muskets and pikes for protection. No need for maces, cannons do the attacking, even archers can mop after. This stack'll hit harder than rifles/trebs. It's vulnerable though to cuirassiers, in my experience cannons don't die from these attack and the ai's not very good at mass attacking with these beasts but they can be a bit of an annoyance. Personally i think the speed advantage in tech but also in city taking combined with the longer lifespan of cannons (still ok if the ai researches rifles) compared to rifles more than makes up for this. If the ai gets rifles you're 1 tech from grens but they'll probably have cavs too then. By that time you need to have rifles or you must have weakened your victim as cavs will tear this stack apart. Good chance you can trade at least for rp maybe rifles too by that time.
Scouting gets you on the right path here i think, do the ais have many mounted units? Cyrus could have a lot since he probably built immortals in the early game.
You need to bulb pp before you can bulb chem also you'll need some self research on chem if you bulb once. The ai is rather quick with trading pp so you may get it in trade. If you go rifles i'd give some consideration to bulbing astro, that might just shave off enough turns of the rifles/trebs idea. Then again you have only 6 cities so you won't profit fully from the intercontinental routes. There's no absolute safety in attacking 1150 AD, with rifles/trebs. There's some chance the ai'll have rifles too, trebs don't cut it against rifles (at least i never tried that). Bottom line, i'd go steel. I have never had one cannon dying from cuirassiers flank attacking, trebs will die to flank attack though because their base strength is 3 times lower. And cuirassiers only need retreat to do flank damage so rifles is not full protection.
Fortunately you have no horses otherwise you could also consider a mounted cuirassier attack yourself.
I meant a cannon war with drafted muskets and pikes for protection. No need for maces, cannons do the attacking, even archers can mop after. This stack'll hit harder than rifles/trebs. It's vulnerable though to cuirassiers, in my experience cannons don't die from these attack and the ai's not very good at mass attacking with these beasts but they can be a bit of an annoyance. Personally i think the speed advantage in tech but also in city taking combined with the longer lifespan of cannons (still ok if the ai researches rifles) compared to rifles more than makes up for this. If the ai gets rifles you're 1 tech from grens but they'll probably have cavs too then. By that time you need to have rifles or you must have weakened your victim as cavs will tear this stack apart. Good chance you can trade at least for rp maybe rifles too by that time.
Scouting gets you on the right path here i think, do the ais have many mounted units? Cyrus could have a lot since he probably built immortals in the early game.
You need to bulb pp before you can bulb chem also you'll need some self research on chem if you bulb once. The ai is rather quick with trading pp so you may get it in trade. If you go rifles i'd give some consideration to bulbing astro, that might just shave off enough turns of the rifles/trebs idea. Then again you have only 6 cities so you won't profit fully from the intercontinental routes. There's no absolute safety in attacking 1150 AD, with rifles/trebs. There's some chance the ai'll have rifles too, trebs don't cut it against rifles (at least i never tried that). Bottom line, i'd go steel. I have never had one cannon dying from cuirassiers flank attacking, trebs will die to flank attack though because their base strength is 3 times lower. And cuirassiers only need retreat to do flank damage so rifles is not full protection.
Fortunately you have no horses otherwise you could also consider a mounted cuirassier attack yourself.
Joshua368
Warmongering builder
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Yes, cannons dominate way more than rifles. Trebs just suck in comparisan, expecially since they take forever to strip down city defenses. (still effected by castles) Cannons with grenadiers/muskets/maces/axes/whatever are much more effectient, that's what I've been saying this whole time. 
No need to draft, just build up an army of trebs while you wait. They upgrade cheap. Drafting mop-up units like muskets like Dirk suggests could work too.
No need to draft, just build up an army of trebs while you wait. They upgrade cheap. Drafting mop-up units like muskets like Dirk suggests could work too.
DMOC
Mathematician
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After some consideration, I think your way might be best. So I use my next Great Scientist in 6 turns to bulb part of Printing Press, then I use the NEXT GS to bulb part of Chemistry and self research Gunpowder and Engineering (for pikes). After that, I use Steel. So I may use Gunpowder as the Liberalism freebie.
As an alternative, I could use Printing Press as the freebie (need Machinery so maybe give Edu to Ram for Machinery + Compass + gold?) and self research Gunpowder and use my next GS to bulb part of Chemistry. This way, I can get a Great Merchant earlier (I would just change the scientists in Delhi to merchant specialists).
I've never used drafted musketmen (well, I never use musketmen anyway) so this will be interesting. Should I make some maces to counter Cyrus' maces and axes that he has?
I have a warrior who is out scouting. There don't seem to be an abnormal amount of mounted units.
If there's a chance I can get a Great Merchant, I can use him to upgrade some cats and trebs to cannons.
Any thoughts on using spies at all? Some of Cy's cities are on hills so spies could cause city revolts. In addition, he has Chichen Itza. Unfortunately, I am only producing 6 espionage points per turn. I have more EP on Ram right now.
Lastly, Cy or Ram? Ram has a lot of wonders that I would like and has a weaker military so maybe strike him first and convert to Confucianism? I would also like to bribe WK into war with Cy because WK could be bribed into war against me (he's pleased with Ram). I think Ram's land is better and I really would like to strike him first.
Yes, cannons dominate way more than rifles. Trebs just suck in comparisan, expecially since they take forever to strip down city defenses. (still effected by castles) Cannons with grenadiers/muskets/maces/axes/whatever are much more effectient, that's what I've been saying this whole time.
No need to draft, just build up an army of trebs while you wait. They upgrade cheap. Drafting mop-up units like muskets like Dirk suggests could work too.
Good thoughts, I am now going to go the cannon route.
But bombard city defenses? Usually I don't want to waste anytime bombarding city defenses because I can suicide siege weapons, but maybe Cannons will change my mind on bombarding.
Dirk1302
Deity
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You don't need maces, muskets are stronger. Where you never use muskets i almost never use maces. I have used drafted muskets a lot, they're kind of expendable so i just draft lots of them if i go for this start. Pikes are very important, otherwise you'll be attacked by knights. So cannon/musket/pike it is roughly in 2/2/1 distribution.
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Try to trade for engineering, gunpowder is a good candidate to offer. I'd still go optics soon btw might even help with trades but i think the ai will go for it too.
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Don't know about pp as freebie, hard to say but the ai tend to research it early, you don't need it (well would be ok for paliputra i guess) and you can bulb pp ~ 3/4 . It all depends on how much you can plan to bulb so see for yourself how it fits best.
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With cannon you bombard cities down to 0% in 1 turn, next turn you take the cities. You might lose a cannon now and then but the idea is they stay alive so no suicide attacks before bombarding to 0%. You need at least 10 cannons in your stack.
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I understand why you'd like to take on Ram, in that case i'd say optics is even more important looking for an alternative source of trade. If Cyrus you can keep on trading with Ram. Trading with Ram while he's target is generally no good i think though i'd still do it if i could get a tech i absolutely need from him while giving away something like liberalism. But most techs you might have on offer'll help him someway.
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Once you start drafting make sure you run teo, one promo on the muskets helps a lot, cr2 on the cannons and combat 2 on the pikes is also nice. Since this stack is a bit vulnerable the promos are important.
You don't need maces, muskets are stronger. Where you never use muskets i almost never use maces. I have used drafted muskets a lot, they're kind of expendable so i just draft lots of them if i go for this start. Pikes are very important, otherwise you'll be attacked by knights. So cannon/musket/pike it is roughly in 2/2/1 distribution.
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Try to trade for engineering, gunpowder is a good candidate to offer. I'd still go optics soon btw might even help with trades but i think the ai will go for it too.
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Don't know about pp as freebie, hard to say but the ai tend to research it early, you don't need it (well would be ok for paliputra i guess) and you can bulb pp ~ 3/4 . It all depends on how much you can plan to bulb so see for yourself how it fits best.
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With cannon you bombard cities down to 0% in 1 turn, next turn you take the cities. You might lose a cannon now and then but the idea is they stay alive so no suicide attacks before bombarding to 0%. You need at least 10 cannons in your stack.
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I understand why you'd like to take on Ram, in that case i'd say optics is even more important looking for an alternative source of trade. If Cyrus you can keep on trading with Ram. Trading with Ram while he's target is generally no good i think though i'd still do it if i could get a tech i absolutely need from him while giving away something like liberalism. But most techs you might have on offer'll help him someway.
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Once you start drafting make sure you run teo, one promo on the muskets helps a lot, cr2 on the cannons and combat 2 on the pikes is also nice. Since this stack is a bit vulnerable the promos are important.
Joshua368
Warmongering builder
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2008
- Messages
- 3,072
If all goes well and you strike while the AI only has muskets/longbows, your not going to be suiciding any cannons. Even if Grenades show up, if your cannons manage to reach City Raider III they should have a fairly good survival rate against non-protective AIs.
It will only take five cannons with the accuracy promotion (available from Barrage I or City Raider I) to wipe out 100% cultural defenses in one turn. A sixth to take care of Chichen Itza. So just have a group solely for that purpose, that'll never actually attack cities. I can understand not fully bombarding in the cat/treb era (it takes so slow...) but cannons and beyond its really easy.
Also I have never drafted muskets before... though actually I've only ever used drafting once. It was allright, but I find myself missing Bureaucracy or Free Speech too much. You are Spiritual though, have fun. To be honest at this point in the game I would start spamming maces and trebs to upgrade, (I know you don't have engineering yet) expecially since you're in vassalage.
Also be sure to tech Military Science after Steel. Don't delay your war for it, but it'll be nice to reinforce your initial attack with grenadiers.
fjordan
Warlord
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2007
- Messages
- 210
You don't need pikes, War Elephants are even better. The higher base strength means promotions will kick in harder and with a stable Formation is easier to get. And you can start building them right away. Maybe they can be overflow-whipped into the Globe Theater (with a forge)?
No need for maces or grens if you follow Dirks advice. A cannon army is an unstoppable force for a long time, just use your muskets for XP farming. Take what you want now and finish the continent later with an upgrade to infantery / artillery from a few turns of 100% gold or a merchant.
I would take Nat as the freebie, you will want to draft muskets before the war so might as well get the most beakers out of it. Especially since you can start with WE and then trebs. Plenty of time for muskets if you draft 'em.
I believe Chemistry is on the bulb list or is SM already in the way? Not being an aggressive bulber I don't know about these things but it is worth checking out.
No need for maces or grens if you follow Dirks advice. A cannon army is an unstoppable force for a long time, just use your muskets for XP farming. Take what you want now and finish the continent later with an upgrade to infantery / artillery from a few turns of 100% gold or a merchant.
I would take Nat as the freebie, you will want to draft muskets before the war so might as well get the most beakers out of it. Especially since you can start with WE and then trebs. Plenty of time for muskets if you draft 'em.
I believe Chemistry is on the bulb list or is SM already in the way? Not being an aggressive bulber I don't know about these things but it is worth checking out.
