DO NOT CONGRATULATE

[Thorgalaeg]

Have to agree with red_elk here. They will rig it when needed only. Meanwhile if it is not broken dont fix it. Isnt that an old russian adagio?

BTW, just watched on youtube the video about Putin meeting opossition leaders after elections. It consisted of Putin giving a long and very reasonable reconciliatory speech while the others looked at the table with submission and fear. I mean, everybody knows who is the boss in Russia.

(Not that i am saying Putin is not the best leader Russia can have, he is, but democratic he is not)

 

[Kyriakos]

I know that all elections in Russia are automatically labeled as rigged, but... did anybody report 2018 elections as rigged already?
What's the point in "rigging" elections when Putin with his 70% approval rating can easily win fair ones?

Cause the russian way is to rig anyway, just for the hell of it

 

[Broken_Erika]

To Rig; Or Not To Rig.

 

[Wastl]

There is more than one way to "rig" something. You don't necessarily need to undermine the voting process itself. Randomly putting other candidates in jail under obscure circumstances, a ton of government propaganda, "suggesting" to employees that they should go and vote (and for whom) if they want to see their area/company get preferential treatment, and generally doing everything to prevent an actual opposition from existing beyond the few weirdos on the far sides of the spectrum who exist more as useful idiots to keep up the sharade than as actual competition, gives you an even better effect, without even having to go so low as altering the votes themself.

Putin isn't Erdogan, he doesn't need to truly stuff the ballot to win (though weird instances, like a bunch of balloons suddenly popping up in front of a security camera that was showing votes being counted, do not really look good either). His popularity is high enough to win anyway. But it didn't get there by being such a nice democratic fellow, it got there because he stacked the deck completely in his favour.

 

[red_elk]

Lots of people in the West seemingly assume Russia or Putin will do all sorts of bad things just for the sake of evilness
Even when doing such things is illogical and self-harming.

Meanwhile if it is not broken dont fix it. Isnt that an old russian adagio?

More like a software engineers motto.
"If that thing works properly, don't even touch it."

 

[Wastl]

No, they just live in reality...

 

[red_elk]

"suggesting" to employees that they should go and vote (and for whom)

We were somewhat encouraged to vote by the employer, but there was no real pressure or any kind of sanctions for those who didn't want to go. And "for whom" wasn't even an option, elections were anonymous.

 

[Kyriakos]

Some people don't bother with important context: Putin replaced Yeltsin, who is generally seen (afaik) as a shill/puppet of the US or similar interests. Furthermore, Putin did oversee an exit from the chaos of the Yeltsin years. His policies seem to be popular in Russia, so those factors make it likely that he will keep being elected.
Now, no one really should like a nominal president for life. And yes, Putin appears to be just that. Yet the context also includes all kinds of fall-out in the region (Europe), so the reason to vote for his gov definitely can't be said to be far-fetched and thus requiring rigging to be manufactured.

I certainly dislike a number of things about Putin, and serious things (eg his own role in the Ukraine, or civil rights issues), but let's not pretend that in the current climate he is the worst. This isn't 2000. It is 2018.

 

[Berzerker]

Russia are the bad guys ? Because it invade Chechyan and killed tens of thousands of people Why is US not the bad guys for invading Afghanistan, Iraq and killed tens of thousand of people then ?
Checkmate Liberals !

If both are bad why be surprised when they congratulate each other?

Absolutely! Because in the world of Republican talking points there is no room for context.

Bottom line, after much consultation a national security team and president decided that with everything going on with Russia at the time congratulating Putin was appropriate. Six years later the national security team after much consultation watched as the president went off flying by the seat of his pants and ignored three out of five items they had determined were appropriate. Now, if I thought Trump was really smarter than the career professionals who are advising him I'd be fine with that, but since I think he is an idiot that I wouldn't trust to negotiate with a kitten up a tree I am not satisfied with it at all.

You dont have to be a Republican to see the hypocrisy of Democrats complaining about Trump for doing what Obama did 6 years earlier. Here's the 'context' - Putin got elected twice in sham elections and Obama and Trump congratulated him. I'd love to hear why Obama and his advisors decided Putin was deserving of congratulations in 2012 and what they think of Trump doing it in 2018.

I know that all elections in Russia are automatically labeled as rigged, but... did anybody report 2018 elections as rigged already?
What's the point in "rigging" elections when Putin with his 70% approval rating can easily win fair ones?

What happens to serious competitors in Russia? I saw video of people stuffing ballot boxes, why should I believe approval ratings aren't 'stuffed' too?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Here's the 'context' - Putin got elected twice in sham elections and Obama and Trump congratulated him.

Actually that's the event. Looking at the context is examining what is around the event, not just restating the event itself over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

I keep hoping that someday you will realize that you aren't expressing an argument, you are just being annoying. Surprise me here.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

What happens to serious competitors in Russia?

They are allowed to have town hall meetings in the living room of anyone willing to take the risk of hosting such events. Meanwhile Putin uses state-run television to address the nation and appeal for votes. A sham election doesn't actually require stuffing ballot boxes.

 

[Berzerker]

Actually that's the event. Looking at the context is examining what is around the event, not just restating the event itself over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

I keep hoping that someday you will realize that you aren't expressing an argument, you are just being annoying. Surprise me here.

I did provide 'context'... FF pointed to Putin's recent sins to argue congratulations were unwarranted and I pointed to his crimes against the Chechens, that didn't stop Obama from congratulating Putin. But I dont see why this 'context' matters, why is it appropriate to congratulate dictators for 'winning' rigged elections? Its 'appropriate' when we have other goals and kissing arse serves them.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I did provide 'context'... FF pointed to Putin's recent sins to argue congratulations were unwarranted and I pointed to his crimes against the Chechens, that didn't stop Obama from congratulating Putin. But I dont see why this 'context' matters, why is it appropriate to congratulate dictators for 'winning' rigged elections? Its 'appropriate' when we have other goals and kissing arse serves them.

Yes, it is appropriate sometimes. That's what the context is examined for. Now, since the national security team apparently does NOT have any goals that are served by it at this time why did Trump unilaterally decide to kiss Putin's arse?

 

[warpus]

Can Trump even read? Maybe he can't.

 

[red_elk]

Why should I believe approval ratings aren't 'stuffed' too?

Because approval ratings are confirmed by independent polls.
If you don't believe they exist in Russia, read about Putin's approval and popularity in any other source you trust.
From what I read, all more or less reputable sources agree on that matter.

What happens to serious competitors in Russia?

Nothing happens to them. The most popular opposition are communists, they usually get 10%-25% percents of votes. Pro-Western candidates get at most 5% and it remains the same since Yeltsin's time in 90-s

 

[Berzerker]

Yes, it is appropriate sometimes. That's what the context is examined for. Now, since the national security team apparently does NOT have any goals that are served by it at this time why did Trump unilaterally decide to kiss Putin's arse?

Trump's goal is getting Putin's help on a range of issues. Thats the context. You're ignoring context while accusing me of ignoring context. FF provided other context - Putin's a bad man - and I showed he was a bad man when Obama congratulated him - context. Now, I dont know if that decision was unilateral any more than you know Obama's wasn't. I assume both Presidents had people giving different advice and arse kissing won out.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Trump's goal is getting Putin's help on a range of issues. Thats the context. You're ignoring context while accusing me of ignoring context. FF provided other context - Putin's a bad man - and I showed he was a bad man when Obama congratulated him - context. Now, I dont know if that decision was unilateral any more than you know Obama's wasn't. I assume both Presidents had people giving different advice and arse kissing won out.

Your assumption is making an ass out of you...leave me out of it.

 

[Berzerker]

Because approval ratings are confirmed by independent polls. If you don't believe they exist in Russia, read about Putin's approval and popularity in any other source you trust. From what I read, all more or less reputable sources agree on that matter.

If I lived in Russia I'd be wary of telling strangers what I thought of Putin. Do you know any Russians who share my reticence? The elections there are rigged, from stuffing ballot boxes (paper trails can be circumvented) to jailing and killing opponents. When we see images of NKs applauding Un do you think its genuine support? Now Russia aint that bad, but its bad enough to create an environment of fear. If Putin was so popular why stuff ballot boxes? Why eliminate serious competitors?

 

[rah]

I don't have that big of a problem with him congratulating him. Politicians and World leaders lie to each other all the time.
But the continual don't bother listening to your advisers is troubling. And the leaking of that information is the most troubling.
Whatta place to work. Trust and respect.

 

[Berzerker]

Your assumption is making an ass out of you...leave me out of it.

Leaving yourself out of it is within your power, but why is your assumption better than mine? Is that another assumption?