Lifeblood
Defender of the faith
Vote for what? A state? In that case no.
Do Palastinians get the vote?
- Thread starter zulu9812
- Start date
WickedSmurf
pr0
So basically Palestinians COULD get voting rights in Israel? They would pretty soon be a majority, or? IF so the Israelis would soon find themselves having a Palestinian president, no? That would be kinda sweet, the irony of democracy...
Before our Israeli members wade into this and state facts, consider the distinction between citizenship and nationality. I'd been checking Israeli government sites, and found the terms used here and there, variously and, it seems, not interchangeably. And I'm not a lawyer,
but THIS lends some insight.
but THIS lends some insight.
Yaniv
Prince
As an Israeli let me put some sense into this thread:
1) Even though Palestine is not a country it has its own government, (led by Arafat). Palestinians don't vote for the Israeli government, the same way Israelis don't vote for the Palestinian government (not that it's very democratic).
2) Palestinians are not aloowed into Israeli territory, unless they have a work pass. And Israelis are not allowed in Palestinian territory.
3) All Arabs which were in Israel at its birth were given full citizenship.
4) Being born in Israel does not make you an Israeli citizen. You are an Israeli only if you are born to Israeli parents. Thus, the children of illegal immigrants aren't citizens.
5) Israel was created as a Jewish state, so Jews can live there without the antisemetisim that occurred a few years before (the Nazis). Any law which attempts to break this is considered illegal. However, you are allowed to believe in whatever religion you like, such as Arab Israelies.
One more thing: Zulu, I'm not justifing every step Israel take much as I don't justify most of the steps the Palestinains take.
But calling Israel "brutal oppressor who murders people in his own country" and comparing it with Sadam is very foolish. I suggest you do some research before saying such silly things.
1) Even though Palestine is not a country it has its own government, (led by Arafat). Palestinians don't vote for the Israeli government, the same way Israelis don't vote for the Palestinian government (not that it's very democratic).
2) Palestinians are not aloowed into Israeli territory, unless they have a work pass. And Israelis are not allowed in Palestinian territory.
3) All Arabs which were in Israel at its birth were given full citizenship.
4) Being born in Israel does not make you an Israeli citizen. You are an Israeli only if you are born to Israeli parents. Thus, the children of illegal immigrants aren't citizens.
5) Israel was created as a Jewish state, so Jews can live there without the antisemetisim that occurred a few years before (the Nazis). Any law which attempts to break this is considered illegal. However, you are allowed to believe in whatever religion you like, such as Arab Israelies.
One more thing: Zulu, I'm not justifing every step Israel take much as I don't justify most of the steps the Palestinains take.
But calling Israel "brutal oppressor who murders people in his own country" and comparing it with Sadam is very foolish. I suggest you do some research before saying such silly things.
zulu9812
The Newbie Nightmare
But are Palastinians able to vote in an election for the Israeli governemnt, if they want to? Scots are able to vote for both the Scottish and British parliaments, whilst English can only vote for the British parliament.
Do Israelis want to go into Palastinian territory? Actually, we've already seen what happens when they want to live there. The land is nationalised for Jews only and the Palastinians are booted out.
This is racism
When Israel was created as a Jewish state, did anyone bother to ask the Palastinians - as it was their country?
Yaniv, I didn't compare the Israeli government with Saddam Hussein - the audience member on that MTV forum did. Nonetheless, Israel does perpetrate state terror against Palastinians and others. There are many, many examples. A lot of killings seem to occur because the I.D.F. get trigger happy and shoot at Palastinians who may cause a threat, although often the threat is exaggerated by the soldiers. Two examples include shooting an eight-year old boy for throwing stones and the killing of a British UN peacekeeper (the Israelis thought he had something small and metal in his hand - it was his mobile 'phone), both from last year.
The persecution isn't just limited to Palastinians born in the West Bank. There is a man named Azmi Bishara, an Israeli Arab member of the Knesset. In October 2000, 300 Israelis attacked his house and Bishara was wounded by police fire. During this period, thirteen more Israeli Arabs were killed by police fire. At no time has Azmi Bishara participated in any terrorist campaign of violence, or funded such activities. Last I heard he was on trial for the following acts of free speech: that Lebanon had the right to resist invasion in the '70s, vocally supporting the intiffada as an alternative to total submission or outright war, and his involvement in Palastinian family re-unification.
(source: Power and Terror by Noam Chomsky)
Pontiuth Pilate
Republican Jesus!
Do the Basic Laws even include free speech?
By the way, quoting Noam Chomsky just sunk any credibility you may have had in this thread
it doesn't change the facts you cited, which of course are still true, but you can expect a lot of offtopic ranting on fifth columnist red academia liberals from certain members I won't name 
By the way, quoting Noam Chomsky just sunk any credibility you may have had in this thread
it doesn't change the facts you cited, which of course are still true, but you can expect a lot of offtopic ranting on fifth columnist red academia liberals from certain members I won't name Dr. Dr. Doktor
Emperor
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Noam Chomsky states nothing but the facts. He is an academic who through his studies of the semantic and lingvistic is capable of seeing through the charade and thus arriving at the objective facts. These, to my mind, are largely based on the actual projection of power of certain powers into certain geographical areas of the world. As such it is the United States and Israel which are projecting power into the Muslim world and not the reverse. Hence the quest to as what it is is that these powers really want is an assignment for the scientifically minded.
Mr. Cackle
Cacklin' since '95
Originally posted by Pontiuth Pilate
Do the Basic Laws even include free speech?
By the way, quoting Noam Chomsky just sunk any credibility you may have had in this thread
See that is the problem. Too many conservatives makead hominem arguments. They try and deny any credibility simply because of the person who said it, failing to ask if Chomsky provided any sources. If they really didn't believe it, then they should ask for Chomsky's source and see it for themself. Or go to Israel. Either way, there is some work involved. Unfortunately, many members of the board like to live in their narrow-minded cocoon of utopian capitalism.
Free Enterprise
The return stroke.
Hypocrisy is prevelant on this board too it seems. Not to mention possible false classifications of certain posters political ideologies.
Sarevok
Civ3 Scenario Creator
I agree with this.
Dr. Dr. Doktor
Emperor
- Joined
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- Messages
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Saravok.
You would be willing to give up the concept of democracy to defend, well 'democracy'. This is an honest statement.
However since democracy is now nothing but a hollow shell behind which one can administer the true ideals of one's belief-system, it would be nice to know what exactly people like you have in store for us.
Simply quoting the halfbaked thoughts of others is not going to convince anyone. Especially when you so wholeheatedly agree. One gets the impression that you would agree with anything.
You would be willing to give up the concept of democracy to defend, well 'democracy'. This is an honest statement.
However since democracy is now nothing but a hollow shell behind which one can administer the true ideals of one's belief-system, it would be nice to know what exactly people like you have in store for us.
Simply quoting the halfbaked thoughts of others is not going to convince anyone. Especially when you so wholeheatedly agree. One gets the impression that you would agree with anything.
Benderino
Loyal American Democrat
Pontiuth? A "narrow minded" "conservative"? Now that's a laugh. Just because he may be a capitalist doesn't mean he's conservative. Take it from me.
And from what I hear, Chomsky speaks utter bulls**t on the topic of Israel. He has been discredited on numerous occasions.
Simon Darkshade
Mysterious City of Gold
Originally posted by Pontiuth Pilate
Irsael was created for jews to have their own state and govern themselves.
And South Africa was created especially for white people
Yes, it was. The Union of South Africa was created out of Cape Colony, the Boer Republics, Natal et al. All of those were created for the purpose of the white settlers, and by them. From 1685, inter-racial marriage was prohibited by act of law in Cape Colony. This carried on as official state policy in Orange Free State and Transvaal, and even in the official act of Union of South Africa in 1910. The Land Act of 1913 allowed blacks to own property, but only in their own designated homelands
Interestingly enough, those considered as 'black' rather than 'Cape coloured/coloured' don't really descend from those even near the original colonies; the Hottentots and Bushmen merged together with the Malay slaves and others (including the later Indian arrivals) to form the coloured designation, whereas the Xhosa, Zulus, etc, were very much further off.
Thus, it was very much the case that South Africa was created especially for the white people, and this shone through particularly when the Afrikaner National Party gained dominance. Even under the comparably light hand of British colonial rule and dominion status, nothing essentially changed.
On a side note, why are Lesotho and Swaziland not considered Bantustans, when for all purposes that is what they are?
As for Israel, no the Pals do not get the vote, nor should they. They are refugees, not citizens. The only way they would get a vote is under a one state solution in Palestinian favour, and that will not happen.
Yaniv
Prince
Neither side is allowed to vote for the other. Israel is not Scotland.
No Palastinian is kicked out of his home in Palastinian territory unless he is involved in some sort of terrorist activity. There are Israeli radicalists which choose to build settlements in empty Palestinian territory in illegal ways. Can't say I'm one of them.
You are only an Israeli citizen if you are born to an Israeli citizen (or achieve citizenship in other ways). This is to prevent illegal immigration.
Actaully, it was British territory and was populated mostly by Jews. Everyone in Israel at the time of its foundation was given full citizenship. At the time, Palastinian territory was not under Israeli control. It was captured by the Israelis in a war, which the Arab nations declared on Israel in order to remove it from the map.
Israeli soldiers are attacked by Palastinians on a very high basis. Sadly, mistakes are bound to happen, and innocent people may get hurt. Israel has no intrest on killing INNOCENT Palastinians: just look at the rep its giving Israel.
As for the 13 Arab Israelis, it was infact a MAJOR mistake made by Israeli police. The participants of the act were put to trail. As for Azmi, I'm not too sure about his innocense.
Regardless, none of these examples even come close to the dozens of suicide bombers placing themselves in as much crowded area as they can in an attempt to blow up and kill as many innocent civilians as they can.
andrewgprv
Second Class Citizen
Couple of questions for the Israelis.
From reading this http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0190/9001020.htm I am confused, are there two levels of citizenship, a citizen and a national? And that one must be jewish to be a national which recieves rights to land and more?
Also that only jewish immigrants recieve citizenship?
From reading this http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0190/9001020.htm I am confused, are there two levels of citizenship, a citizen and a national? And that one must be jewish to be a national which recieves rights to land and more?
Also that only jewish immigrants recieve citizenship?
Pontiuth Pilate
Republican Jesus!
On a side note, why are Lesotho and Swaziland not considered Bantustans, when for all purposes that is what they are?
See, the parallel between Israel and South Africa is even closer. Not only is Israel founded on the concept of exclusive race - or religion, same deal - but it wants to "grant" the "minorities" who were "previous residents" of said land a "homeland" to live in. In other words, a set of Bantustans.
If there ever is a "Palestinian state", in other words, if Israel ever allows one, it'll probably be a set of widely separated enclaves subject to military rule by puppets bought in and installed from Jerusalem.
Israel has no intrest on killing INNOCENT Palastinians: just look at the rep its giving Israel.
That's bull****. Israel's rep is pretty constant. The Americans will excuse it away if Israel drops a miniature nuke on Yasser Arafat; the Europeans will still be rabidly anti-Israel even if Sharon decides to hand over Jerusalem to Iran.
As for killing innocent civilians, there IS a reason for and interest in that. Israel is walking a fine line. On one side, an uncontrollable Palestinian insurgence which would cause complete chaos and the fall of Israel. On the other hand, outright war with the Arab states which would also cause the fall of Israel. It doesn't matter if Israel has nukes, by the way, unless they use them preemptively; a few hours' drive brings you from Jordan to Haifa. So Israel wants to put down the Palestinian freedom movement, but they cannot risk direct measures, or a REALLY brutal crackdown, because they don't want to give Arabia an excuse for action. It's the same problem the USA had in Vietnam; they wanted to win [they had to keep Vietnam] but they didn't want to win [they couldn't afford to use the full force of the USA military for fear of intervention from China or Russia]. In both cases the result is a quasi war in which innocent civilians and infrastructure become the victims of terror, massacres, etc. The goal is demoralization, community fragmentation, and repression. Killing innocent civilians is one way to accomplish that.
See, the parallel between Israel and South Africa is even closer. Not only is Israel founded on the concept of exclusive race - or religion, same deal - but it wants to "grant" the "minorities" who were "previous residents" of said land a "homeland" to live in. In other words, a set of Bantustans.
If there ever is a "Palestinian state", in other words, if Israel ever allows one, it'll probably be a set of widely separated enclaves subject to military rule by puppets bought in and installed from Jerusalem.
Israel has no intrest on killing INNOCENT Palastinians: just look at the rep its giving Israel.
That's bull****. Israel's rep is pretty constant. The Americans will excuse it away if Israel drops a miniature nuke on Yasser Arafat; the Europeans will still be rabidly anti-Israel even if Sharon decides to hand over Jerusalem to Iran.
As for killing innocent civilians, there IS a reason for and interest in that. Israel is walking a fine line. On one side, an uncontrollable Palestinian insurgence which would cause complete chaos and the fall of Israel. On the other hand, outright war with the Arab states which would also cause the fall of Israel. It doesn't matter if Israel has nukes, by the way, unless they use them preemptively; a few hours' drive brings you from Jordan to Haifa. So Israel wants to put down the Palestinian freedom movement, but they cannot risk direct measures, or a REALLY brutal crackdown, because they don't want to give Arabia an excuse for action. It's the same problem the USA had in Vietnam; they wanted to win [they had to keep Vietnam] but they didn't want to win [they couldn't afford to use the full force of the USA military for fear of intervention from China or Russia]. In both cases the result is a quasi war in which innocent civilians and infrastructure become the victims of terror, massacres, etc. The goal is demoralization, community fragmentation, and repression. Killing innocent civilians is one way to accomplish that.
zulu9812
The Newbie Nightmare
So what justification does Israel give for on the one hand denying the Palastinians an independent state, and on the other hand denying them any place in the Israel state?
That just isn't true. The Jewish settlements in the West Bank were, until very recently, very publicly endorsed by Ariel Sharon. Now, whilst these settlements aren't physically kicking Palastinians out of their homes, nationalising the land in this way means that non-nationals (i.e. Palastinians) are unable to live there. Thus Palastinians are denied room to expand and are forced to live in overcrowded hastily-built (shanty) accomodation.
And what about when Israeli tanks blow up and bulldoze Palastinian apartment blocks? Was everyone who lived in those blocks a terrorist? Isn't that kicking a Palastinian out of his home, if he has no home to go back to?
How easy is it for a West Bank-born Palastinian, with no criminal conviction, to become a fully-fledged Israel national? Would he or she have to convert to judaism?
At one point, Palastine was part of Great Britain's colonial empire - that is correct. I wouldn't say Jews were in the majority, although they were significant. In 1936, one third of Palastine's population was Jewish. I would like to point out that at that time, these Jews were illegally importing huge amounts of weapons. It was about this time that the first Jewish terrorist groups made themselves known.
In 1938, with war looming, Britain needed to enlist Arab support throughout the Middle East and they declared that Palastine would be an independent state 10 years from that announcement, with the arab population remaining in the majority (i.e. Britain would prevent any more Jewish immigration). So this British territory was not mostly populated by Jews. Both the Palastinian and Jewish leaderships (in many ways the Jewish leadership then resembles the Palastinian leadership now) rejected this plan, but they were brushed aside. Immigration over the next 5 years was limited to 75,000, which maintained the 1/3 ratio of Jew/Palastinian.
The ten years went by. Britain, bankrupted by the war, handed control of Palastine over the United Nations. By now, British troops were under frequent attack by Jewish terrorist groups, such as the Stern Gang and the Irgun. Later that same year, the U.N. came up with a plan to partition Palastine: the parts already occupied by the Jews would be Israel, whilst the rest would be incoporated into Jordan. Again, this was without asking the Palastinians.
I think the Palastinians would say "And so they should be". They want to be free from an occupying power. They want to be able to form their own goovernment, with their own lands. In fact, Hamas want all of Palastine's previous territory back, with Palastinians in charge, and the Palastine capital in Jerusalem. Can't say I blame them.
The I.D.F. don't give a damn about Palastinians. That's why they make such poor peacekeepers, in fact it's the same reason why American peacekeepers are doing such a poor job in Iraq. British soldiers are internationally recognised as being the best peacekeepers in the world? Why is this? The British troops care about the people in the land they are operating in. They don't shoot anything that moves, just in case that might be a threat to them. They understand that the people they are supposed to protect are human beings. I would've thought that Israeli troops are also there to protect Palastinian civilians - I wonder if they see things the same way.
For decades, Palastinians did nothing to Israel. Sure, various groups hijacked planes, stormed embassies, etc. internationally in order to draw attention to their plight. Suicide bombings are a new phenomenon, brought about because the Palastinians have tried other, more peaceful methods - and they haven't worked. Perhaps they thought it was time to up the stakes.
Incidentally, is it true that all adult Israelis have to serve in the I.D.F or other military organisation? If that's the case, doesn't that mean that every Israeli has either killed a Palastinian or will be in a position to do so in the future? Now I don't have an opinion on this either way, but isn't the logical extension of that that Israeli 'civilians' are essentially off-duty soldiers? Apologies, if my information is inaccurate...
Oh, and I think tanks blowing up houses far surpasses home-made suicide bombs.
Benderino
Loyal American Democrat
Oh, right, like it did the 5 or so other times
Sims2789
Fool me once...
what about the children of those Arabs who were in Israel when it was created?
anyway, the country sounds a lot like a segregated city in the South 59 years ago, with the Arabs being like the balcks and the Israelies being the whites. they wanted to get away from anti-semitism, yet in the process of that they created an aparthied.
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