Do we live in a rape culture?

[Perfection]

Oh no. I'm falling into the abyss. Will my reputation ever be unsullied? Will anyone ever take me seriously again?

 

[Synobun]

Moderator Action: Back on topic, please. The mud-slinging will lead to infractions if it continues.

 

[Commodore]

What I would consider as arguable "rape culture" is if rape victims aren't being taken seriously. I believe that there are many who will not take "slutty" women seriously with regard to rape.

And you would be wrong. Any woman who comes forward to law enforcement with a rape accusation is taken seriously. You're acting like women come forward with a rape accusation and the cops just laugh it off and say "go home slut!" when that doesn't happen at all.

Since you clearly believe there is a "rape culture" in the US, you must have some source of data to back it up right? So let's see it.

 

[Perfection]

And you would be wrong. Any woman who comes forward to law enforcement with a rape accusation is taken seriously. You're acting like women come forward with a rape accusation and the cops just laugh it off and say "go home slut!" when that doesn't happen at all.

Having rape victims being taken seriously requires more than not being laughed at and insulted.

Since you clearly believe there is a "rape culture" in the US, you must have some source of data to back it up right? So let's see it.

I'm just commenting based on what I think is true. I'm not an expert and don't claim to be. I think there are some aspects of US culture that allow for a more conducive environment for rapists to operate than we'd like to think and I think it's important we look at those things. I'm not particularly committed to rigorously defining and defending the term "rape culture", and mostly see defending the term as a useful exercise in discussing the aspects of US culture that don't take rape as seriously as it ought.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

If a guy gets really drunk and has sex with a girl and then regrets it the next day did she rape him?

Donald Trump was not bragging about "sexual assault", he was just BSing with his friends about the things girls would consent to him doing.

Nope. He was bragging about things he had actually done.

When both people are in varying states of drunkenness I'm leery about calling it rape; however, the fact he set off to get the himself and the girl drunk to have sex suggests to me it should at least be considered sexual assault in the court of public opinion as he intended to take advantage of diminished capacity at a later point in time.

Intentions matter.

But she chose to get drunk with him, he didn't force the alcohol down her throat, and then she presumably welcomed his sexual advances. You think she didn't know that drinking with him would make her more likely to want to have sex with him? I can't really consider it assault unless he forced her into something.

Right, because every woman who consumes alcohol does so knowing they're going to want sex with the man they're with.

Sometimes (probably most times), a drink is just a drink, and shouldn't be misconstrued as anything more than a drink. Kinda like a couple of the guys I met at science fiction conventions, who thought my having a 5-minute conversation with them at a room party (where all I drank was Coke, out of a can from the vending machine in the hallway - no alcohol) meant that I wanted to go to bed with them. With me, a conversation is just a conversation and should never be taken as anything more than a conversation.

What about indifference to the fate of sluts?

Slut-shaming is still a common reaction to knowing someone has been raped, and even happens if the woman is merely thought to have been raped. A judge in my province was recently stripped of his job after he asked a rape victim why she "didn't just keep her knees together." His excuse was that he's from South Africa and he wasn't familiar with how Canadian culture views rape.

That's not really a thing though.

Yeah, it is.

I dunno about that. I think there's a pretty clear bias against women who engage in promiscuous behavior.

There is, and even if they're only thought to engage in promiscuous behavior. One of the first questions commonly asked of rape victims are "what were you wearing?" - as if that should make any difference.

Slipping in drugs without the victim's consent is one thing, but most date rapes don't happen like that - the most common date rape drug is alcohol knowingly consumed by the victim prior to the rape.

You'll recall that I used the word "some."

Here's a personal anecdote to underline the case. The most recent time I did anything sexual with anyone - which was over two years ago - she and I had both been drinking. We each had one of those 500 mL mini-boxes of wine - 2/3 of a bottle, or less than 4 standard drinks, which for me is enough to make me slightly buzzed, happy, and less inhibited, but still totally rational. She appeared to feel the same, and we ended up having sex. Everything seemed normal until afterward, as we were brushing our teeth and preparing to go to sleep. She was still coherent, but made a comment that indicated she did not remember something minor that had happened about 15 minutes before. I asked her a couple more questions, and I realized she was in alcoholic blackout. When she awoke the next day, she remembered the first half of the night but not the second. It was okay, because we had been in a short-term casualish relationship and this wasn't the first time, and she did remember things starting to get sexual. But she had no memory of most of what happened next.

She had had a blackout, in which the short-term memory disconnects from the long-term memory. A person in an alcoholic blackout will usually seem normal (if a little drunk), because their short-term memory is okay and their long-term memory is too. It's just that short-term memories don't get recorded by the long-term memory. I had never heard of anyone blacking out at less than 4 standard drinks before, and I had gone drinking with her before, in larger amounts, without this ever happening. Apparently she had not really eaten dinner that night, and all the alcohol hit her bloodstream at once. She said afterwards not to worry and that she was really susceptible to blackouts. But blackouts have literally never happened to me, even during my stupid college years where I drank well past the point of vomiting and having the room start spinning.

This really scared me: what if this had been our first time together, and what if the blackout had started earlier? Would she think I raped her? This sort of thing happens sometimes, and it is absolutely a situation that could result in a rape accusation even though the man really would not be at fault - consent was granted from someone who was not visibly too intoxicated to grant it, but it failed to make it into her long term memory. And I don't even get around much - how often does this sort of thing happen to people who regularly go out and don't spend most of their weekends alone, making forum posts, reading books, and fooling around with chemicals?

My point is that it's a really gray area, and it's pretty much impossible for any third party to know the difference between my anecdote above and the sort of situation where someone is truly unable to speak coherently and is taken advantage of.

You were fortunate that she was so understanding about this. A lot of women wouldn't have been.

As for blackouts... yikes. Back in the fall of 1986 I went with the rest of the people in our Shire (SCA branch) to a feast in Calgary. It was basically a medieval equivalent of Oktoberfest (in September, since our own branch's main feast was held in October), and the only beverage they were offering that wasn't water, was beer. This was my first out-of-town feast, so I didn't know (and nobody told me) the importance of bringing my own beverages if I was particular. So I drank water. And watched during the evening as a friend drank beer... and more beer... and more beer... she enjoyed the feast, got into a conversation with a guy, and did a lot of dancing. She appeared to enjoy herself a lot. And on the way back to the car (several blocks from the feast hall) she got tired and decided to lie down on the boulevard to rest. Since we were almost at the car, nobody said anything - there were 5 of us, so it took awhile to load everyone's feast gear (you bring your own dishes, tablecloths, and candles to these things).

And the next day she kept asking me, "What happened last night? Did I do anything stupid? Did I puke? I don't remember anything." I kept reassuring her that she'd eaten her food, got into what looked like a friendly conversation with a guy, danced a lot, and was tired on the way back to the car and laid down on the ground to rest (she was embarrassed by that; I told her nobody thought anything of it because we all knew she'd been drinking and it had been a long walk to the car). I told her she hadn't done anything stupid or been sick. But she kept asking me all day - "Are you sure? You're not just saying that to make me feel better, are you?"

I decided I was never going to put myself in a situation where I had to ask such questions.

What hypocrisy? I don't believe Christianity has a predilection for rape.

Tell that to the aboriginal kids in the residential schools in Canada, and to the boys in the Mt. Cashel orphanage in Newfoundland and Labrador, and to some of the guys in the various hockey clubs (who were being mentored and coached to be professional NHL players). Nobody would have thought the kids would have been in any danger at all from upstanding teachers, priests, and hockey coaches, right?

Wrong.

And before anyone accuses me of Christian-bashing, there's that little matter of forced child marriage in various Muslim countries...

I voted against it in our last election.

Oh?

I usually seek guidance from the wise sages up north on the best course of action. What is Canada doing?

What is Canada doing about what?

In any case, I'd say nasty looks and mean comments towards promiscuous women still wouldn't mean we have a "rape culture". I'd say a "rape culture" would be something like Saudi Arabia where rape victims are subject to punishment, up to and including execution, simply for being a rape victim.

And of course it's a different thing if some victims of rape or other forms of sexual assault end up not being able to take the constant harassment and the idea that since one instance has happened, that means the victim is "damaged goods" and therefore fair game for some very cruel harassment and they end up committing suicide, right?

gonna be weird in 2070 when 150% of those living in Canada are Muslim

I'll be dead by then, so I won't see it happen I've got no plans to live to 107.

And you honestly think that, that's ever going to be allowed to happen? Heck, society is nearly at the point now where they'd accept the murdering of liberals in the streets.

Dream on.

What's it like living vicariously through Americans while trapped in Canada?

This had better not be a reference to all the Canadians taking part in this thread.

 

[Honor]

And you would be wrong. Any woman who comes forward to law enforcement with a rape accusation is taken seriously. You're acting like women come forward with a rape accusation and the cops just laugh it off and say "go home slut!" when that doesn't happen at all.

Since you clearly believe there is a "rape culture" in the US, you must have some source of data to back it up right? So let's see it.

Rape stats by country:
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Rape-rate#2010

The US is #9.

 

[Commodore]

Having rape victims being taken seriously requires more than not being laughed at and insulted.

What more do you want the cops or the government to do? A woman accuses someone of rape, the cops do their investigation and take the appropriate action based on the results of the investigation. There's not much more they can do beyond that. Unless you want to make "slut shaming" illegal.

Rape stats by country:
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Rape-rate#2010

The US is #9.

Number of rapes does not equal "rape culture". I don't see you or anyone else accusing Australia, Belgium or Sweden of having "rape cultures" despite having more rapes than the US according to your source.

EDIT: If anything, having a higher number of reported rapes indicates we do not have a "rape culture" because a higher number of reported rapes shows victims are becoming less and less afraid of coming forward. I noticed a lot of the countries on your list that have low numbers of reported rapes are also countries that don't have great track records when it comes to women's rights. So their low numbers could very well be the result of women in those countries being afraid to come forward or not reporting being raped because they feel the authorities won't do anything about it.

 

[Honor]

What more do you want the cops or the government to do? A woman accuses someone of rape, the cops do their investigation and take the appropriate action based on the results of the investigation. There's not much more they can do beyond that. Unless you want to make "slut shaming" illegal.



Number of rapes does not equal "rape culture". I don't see you or anyone else accusing Australia, Belgium or Sweden of having "rape cultures" despite having more rapes than the US according to your source.

EDIT: If anything, having a higher number of reported rapes indicates we do not have a "rape culture" because a higher number of reported rapes shows victims are becoming less and less afraid of coming forward. I noticed a lot of the countries on your list that have low numbers of reported rapes are also countries that don't have great track records when it comes to women's rights. So their low numbers could very well be the result of women in those countries being afraid to come forward or not reporting being raped because they feel the authorities won't do anything about it.

That or there aren't that many rapes going on to begin with. I wonder what it would take to convince people that are adapted to a violent culture that their culture is indeed violent.

I don't really care. You can rot in your own hell. Just stop spreading it all over the place.

 

[Perfection]

What more do you want the cops or the government to do? A woman accuses someone of rape, the cops do their investigation and take the appropriate action based on the results of the investigation. There's not much more they can do beyond that. Unless you want to make "slut shaming" illegal.

my comments aren't directed at leos specifically (though Valka provides some good anecdotes) but society at large. For instance slut shaming shouldn't be done, regardless of if it's legal or not.

Rape stats by country:
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Rape-rate#2010

The US is #9.

Reported rape statistics arent very good at telling what is really going on.

 

[Ryika]

If you have a high number of rape reports, that's a sign for rape culture, because many rapes are happening.
If you have a low number of rape reports, that's a sign for rape culture, because victims don't dare come forward.

In fact, because the rape numbers are already that high, and because we can assume that rape victims usually don't dare coming forward anyway, America is a DOUBLE++ rape culture and overall, 2 in 1 women are raped per year, or every woman twice a day.

____________

Not sure who originally said that, but I keep by the mantra of: "America is not a rape culture, but there are certainly rape cultures in America."

Prison is one such rape culture, and... well, if we accept the whole "Take statistics at face value instead of analyzing them!"-mantra that people always use when you try to explain why those statistics are bogus, then colleges, too, especially liberal colleges.

Slut-shaming is still a common reaction to knowing someone has been raped, and even happens if the woman is merely thought to have been raped. A judge in my province was recently stripped of his job after he asked a rape victim why she "didn't just keep her knees together." His excuse was that he's from South Africa and he wasn't familiar with how Canadian culture views rape.

How does a man who immigrated from South Africa, said something terrible and got booted off his job for it, a sign of the overall acceptance towards slut-shaming in Canada? Seems to be the exact opposite to me.

If anything, you're making an argument against immigration from places where rape acceptance is actually pretty high.

 

[Narz]

As there should be. It's dangerous, disgusting and immoral, it spreads disease, and leads to fatherless children and broken families who are forever on the State nipple.

You're just hating cause they won't bang you.

 

[caketastydelish]

Based on the statistics I've read only 6% of men will rape or will attempt to.

Does 'rape culture' refer to that 6 % of men or the other 94% that say things like 'she shouldn't have been wearing that'. I think as for the 6% of men who do rape it's because they're a piece of crap, not because they don't know any better. This is the 21st century. If you haven't caught on by now there's no excuse.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Spoiler :

Tell me that's not rape culture.

Moderator Action: Please spoiler NSFW content. - Vincour

The glorification of prison rape in our culture is sickening.

 

[Narz]

Based on the statistics I've read only 6% of men will rape or will attempt to.

Does 'rape culture' refer to that 6 % of men or the other 94% that say things like 'she shouldn't have been wearing that'. I think as for the 6% of men who do rape it's because they're a piece of crap, not because they don't know any better. This is the 21st century. If you haven't caught on by now there's no excuse.

94% don't say 'she shouldn't have been wearing that'. Most people men & women find rape horrific, at least 1/4 of women I've gotten to know intimately have dealt with some sort of sexual abuse in the past and it sickens me, the 94% are the ones trying to make women feel safe, trusting and open. At least that's what I'm doing. There's always the occasional weirdo who thinks victims 'ask for it' but they are a tiny majority (even tho they probably do make up a much highly percentage of our government officials ).

Disgusting people exist, we shouldn't validate them more than they need to be validated with expressions like 'rape culture'. War zones are 'rape culture' (killing the males, raping the females) and religious backwaters are rape culture (and it does to be pretty systemic in religiously Islamic nations... hate to agree with anything Roman says but that's undeniable).

Again, talking in vague generalities like this only serves to divide us and diffuse responsibility.

 

[Lohrenswald]

I have a feeling 764 not only doesn't know what "rape culture" is, but not even what "culture" is

 

[metalhead]

What more do you want the cops or the government to do? A woman accuses someone of rape, the cops do their investigation and take the appropriate action based on the results of the investigation. There's not much more they can do beyond that. Unless you want to make "slut shaming" illegal.

But what if they aren't doing even the most basic forensic inquiry when there is a rape reported? To the tune of an estimated 70,000 untested rape kits sitting in various evidence lockers around the country.

It would appear that in an awful lot of cases, cops aren't actually doing an investigation at all. So what I would like is for them to start actually making a serious attempt to prosecute sexual assaults.

 

[Disgustipated]

I believe some men will always rape, there is no "educating" them out of it. And I can't help but think it's in our biology. Animals rape all the time. Is there any reason to think humans wouldn't? There have been times in our history when humans struggled, and nearly died off. The male sex drive is enormously overpowering, and women will never truly understand how difficult it can be (of course we will never understand how difficult it is for women as well). There were men way back in our history barely struggling to survive and eat, but they still found the will to... you know (I can't mention the act on here). Not all men are this way of course, but some are, and always will be. The part that annoys me, is for us non rapists, we have to hear this crap from feminists all the time. How about not lumping us all into one big men = bad group. Some of them at least acknowledge us non rapists, but then go on to say it's still our fault for not doing something about the actual rapists. Us non alpha males have no way to influence the decision making process of alpha males.

And despite feminist claims to the contrary, women make up rape lies all the time. It's not a small percentage either. In a way, I can't blame them. Women have it tough in this world, they have to use the tools at their disposal to help even the game.

Just be glad you didn't live in Ghenghis Khan's time or anywhere near him. Men are slowly being made more docile (part of the conveniences of modern easy living and dropping testosterone levels), so it isn't completely hopeless as I said above. But there will always be those who will take what they can't have. It's why people steal and rob for money.

I'm more upset that there's no modern districts or buildings except airport/spaceport. Like, no mass transit, no nuclear plants, solar plants, recycling centres. It's like you get to the modern era with powerplants and suddenly the game is like, "Okay, you're done building. Now just watch your cities grow and go back and build the same arena you could have build 2000 years ago."

This is more a money issue. Our state DA was a woman (she's now a Senator), or can women be a part of the rape culture too? One of the attack ads against her was the untested rape kits, the attack ad didn't work of course, and she was elected. She wasn't responsible for the untested kits. It's primarily the lack of money that leads to some cases not being investigated as strongly as they should.

 

[Ryika]

I believe some men will always rape, there is no "educating" them out of it. And I can't help but think it's in our biology. Animals rape all the time. Is there any reason to think humans wouldn't? There have been times in our history when humans struggled, and nearly died off. The male sex drive is enormously overpowering, and women will never truly understand how difficult it can be (of course we will never understand how difficult it is for women as well). There were men way back in our history barely struggling to survive and eat, but they still found the will to... you know (I can't mention the act on here). Not all men are this way of course, but some are, and always will be. The part that annoys me, is for us non rapists, we have to hear this crap from feminists all the time. How about not lumping us all into one big men = bad group. Some of them at least acknowledge us non rapists, but then go on to say it's still our fault for not doing something about the actual rapists. Us non alpha males have no way to influence the decision making process of alpha males.

Well.

You could give me some of your money to make up for it if that makes you feel better.

 

[Disgustipated]

You could give me some of your money to make up for it if that makes you feel better.

Well I don't feel that bad about it. hehe. It's bad enough alpha male rapists like Trump take away my money, I don't want to lose any more because of men like him.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

How does a man who immigrated from South Africa, said something terrible and got booted off his job for it, a sign of the overall acceptance towards slut-shaming in Canada? Seems to be the exact opposite to me.

If anything, you're making an argument against immigration from places where rape acceptance is actually pretty high.

The judge found what he said to be acceptable. His supporters found it acceptable. Quite a number of people supported him, using the excuse that the woman who had been raped had been drinking and was homeless. The judge took some kind of sensitivity training and proclaimed he was a changed man and now understood what a bad bunch of things he said and wanted his job back... but he'd held out on these remedial measures as long as he could in the first place, and seemed to think he actually deserved his job back.

The fact is, he should have resigned. A judge at his level getting booted off his job for inappropriate behavior is actually pretty rare in Canada, and he's the only one to try to hold on to his job, kicking and screaming and proclaiming that he "didn't deserve" to be fired. It's disgusting, how some people stood up for him when he was so clearly guilty of re-victimizing the rape victim in court.

So while many people did not support him, there were quite a few others who did - who said, "Oh, he knows now that he said a bad thing"... and dismissed the fact that no other rape victims would ever feel confident of their attackers being convicted or appropriately sentenced in this judge's courtroom, or who couldn't understand what all the fuss was about in the first place - because if the woman was drunk and homeless, she deserved whatever happened.

You missed the point that I was making - the JUDGE was engaging in slut-shaming. Asking her why she didn't just keep her knees together wasn't the only wrong thing he said.