Do you beileve in evolution? Why or why not?

[Toteone]

I agree, I was not there but I have faith in my Lord, the only God.

 

[Perfection]

Perfection, see its evident to me that you just don't understand Religion and the concept of faith altogether. Why was god behind those chemical processes? Well, why wasn't he?

It's quite pluasible that it occured without some god. Why add something to a worldview that is unevidenced and has little oppurtunity for explaining observed phenomena? Abiogenic processes is an exciting field of research that has the potential to answer numerous questions about how we came into being and about the way we are now. The god idea is merely an intellectual equivalent of throwing your hands up and giving up.

Why the subject of God and divinity, its sometimes not applicable to ask why because alot of the time the answer with regards to God is "It just was" or "He made it that way".

Because it closes of investigation for no reason other than the fact that it's difficult

People who are part of the a religion believe because they have faith it is true and you can't really prove their doctrine false.

Being unable to prove something false seems to me to be an unfounded belief. Why should we believe in unfounded beliefs

Your basic assumption that everything has to have a scientific explanation is an assumptionn we don't believe in.

It's not htat everything has a scientific explination, it's that the only real explinations of phenomena are scientific.

For the record, I do believe in evolution, but not abiogenesis as in the Pastuer model.

Well, noone believes in that versian. We're talking about gradual chemical progression with all kinds of intermediary steps over a larger area and much longer term.

 

[Archbob]

Perfection, your still missing the entire point. Why should we believe in unfounded beliefs? Because we believe its true.

My belief of God is just as your belief that there is no God.

If your trying to disprove God, you will never be able to do that. If you are trying to disprove that nothing started it all, you'll never prove that either. You simply believe that it all started from nothing. We simply believe that God started it all.

You still sound like one of those aethiests who don't even understand the basic concept of faith.

 

[bhsup]

Oh no, I think he understands it. He simply rejects it and rejects the "because of faith" arguments. It's a legitimate position to hold, but one that really makes conversation with someone coming from the faith perspective seem like a visit to the dentist for a root canal.

 

[Toteone]

The Earth has only been around for several billion years at the most. It is extremely unlikely if at all possible that macroevolution has taken place at all, not to mention it\d have to be on a grand scale.

Really, the wishful thinking/survival hypothesis has been taken way too far.

 

[Perfection]

Perfection, your still missing the entire point. Why should we believe in unfounded beliefs? Because we believe its true.

You blieve because you believe? I find that rather poor thinking.

My belief of God is just as your belief that there is no God.

No it isn't, positive and negative beliefs are quite different. Postive beliefs add "theory" to your worldview, negatives do not. Theories are only useful if they can make valid predictions about the world around you. I don't believe that god passes this test.

If your trying to disprove God, you will never be able to do that. If you are trying to disprove that nothing started it all, you'll never prove that either. You simply believe that it all started from nothing. We simply believe that God started it all.

Certainly I can never prove either, but the absence of belief in useless theory is better than belief in it.

You still sound like one of those aethiests who don't even understand the basic concept of faith.

I try and I try, and yet I just don't get it.

 

[Perfection]

The Earth has only been around for several billion years at the most. It is extremely unlikely if at all possible that macroevolution has taken place at all, not to mention it\d have to be on a grand scale.

You state that as if it is a common knowledge fact, when you are actually saying something contrary to what current science strongly points to. I would suggest that in order for us to take you seriously you were to back up these claims. Otherwise, it seems like you are saying things with no regard to previously learned scientific knowledge.

 

[Toteone]

It\s extremely unlikely to me since I don\t agree with the mainstream theory on evolution. I\ll try to find some data...

But basically it goes like this... evolution has the general idea covered, how it could have happened, but there are very many plotholes in the best theory available (Which is evolution) and there are gaps that were filled in ways that could be debated as wishful intent.

 

[Perfection]

It\s extremely unlikely to me since I don\t agree with the mainstream theory on evolution.

Why don't you agree?

I\ll try to find some data...

Have you not based it on data beforehand?

But basically it goes like this... evolution has the general idea covered, how it could have happened, but there are very many plotholes in the best theory available (Which is evolution) and there are gaps that were filled in ways that could be debated as wishful intent.

Well discuss these "plotholes" and how they are merely products of wishful thinking? How do they fit differently in your worldview?

 

[Toteone]

I have based it on date beforehand, data I read month ago.
I must... sleep.

1) It is an incomplete theory, one which I believe will be modified in the future such as gravity was modified by Einstein\s theory of relativity.
2) Yes, I have, but large amounts of old and general data, colored by my perceptions. I work on extraverted intuition.

3) I need fresh data to point out the specific weaknesses. I am also... extremely tired.
You are... more knowledgeable then me on this matter. I acknowledge your superiority in this field for the time being and make a tactical and strategic withdrawal (although I carry my flag with me). I - will - be back.

Sorry man, I\d love to research and discuss this over with you.
Uhhmm I know evolution is scientifically the stronges theory, you got me there. I was aware of it but I guess I\m so used to my own theories that when I postulate... err put them forward it sounds like I am speaking on a general basis. hehehehe

need to sleep
gnight... or morning or day or
/////////

The plotholes are not plotholes... there are not merely the result of wishful thinking, they have solid material building them up, but not enough to stand firm as a rock.. Something stinks... the theory of evolution hasn\t had enough time to establish itself properly.
It\s a very broad subject, lots of evidence but even more ground to cover. The theory of evolution is easy to prod at but not stab because although it is a large and proper structure there have been many creative leaps.

ugh, later

sleep

 

[Perfection]

I have based it on date beforehand, data I read month ago.
I must... sleep.

1) It is an incomplete theory, one which I believe will be modified in the future such as gravity was modified by Einstein\s theory of relativity.

Relativity was a major shift from Newton to Einstien. I don't think you'll seee such a revolution in evolutionary biology. Evolutionary thoery will, of course change, but I don't think it will ever be that much different from Darwin's view.

2) Yes, I have, but large amounts of old and general data, colored by my perceptions. I work on extraverted intuition.

Well, please point it out anyways.

3) I need fresh data to point out the specific weaknesses. I am also... extremely tired.
You are... more knowledgeable then me on this matter. I acknowledge your superiority in this field for the time being and make a tactical and strategic withdrawal (although I carry my flag with me). I - will - be back.

Please do come back. People's perception of science is important to me.

Sorry man, I\d love to research and discuss this over with you.
Uhhmm I know evolution is scientifically the stronges theory, you got me there. I was aware of it but I guess I\m so used to my own theories that when I postulate... err put them forward it sounds like I am speaking on a general basis. hehehehe

need to sleep
gnight... or morning or day or
/////////

The plotholes are not plotholes... there are not merely the result of wishful thinking, they have solid material building them up, but not enough to stand firm as a rock..

Well please go on when you have the time.

Something stinks... the theory of evolution hasn\t had enough time to establish itself properly.

I think it has, do you say the same about basic quantum theory?

It\s a very broad subject, lots of evidence but even more ground to cover. The theory of evolution is easy to prod at but not stab because although it is a large and proper structure there have been many creative leaps.

Well, I haven't even seeen a prod yet!

ugh, later

sleep

Good night, rest well.

You'll need it.

 

[JoeM]

...Well that was the strangest end to a debate I've seen on OT in a while.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

Ah, the joy of knowing Toteone.

 

[shadow2k]

Oh no, I think he understands it. He simply rejects it and rejects the "because of faith" arguments. It's a legitimate position to hold, but one that really makes conversation with someone coming from the faith perspective seem like a visit to the dentist for a root canal.

Well you have to understand that when the story's proof is the story itself, then it's hard to take that seriously.

How do you know God exists?
Because God created the earth.

How do you know God created the earth?
Because it says so in the book of Genesis.

How do you know the book of Genesis is true?
Because God tells us so (through prophets).

And how do you know God really exists again...?



If I were to tell you that we know the ToE to be true because the ToE is how life evolved, what would you say to me? It's the same circular logic.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

How do you know the book of Genesis is true?
Because God tells us so (through prophets).

And how do you know God really exists again...?

Because he speaks through the prophets.

(edit: added red color)

 

[shadow2k]

The Earth has only been around for several billion years at the most. It is extremely unlikely if at all possible that macroevolution has taken place at all, not to mention it\d have to be on a grand scale.

Really, the wishful thinking/survival hypothesis has been taken way too far.

Macroevolution means evolution at or above the species level. Speciation has occured and been documented. I can give you specific examples if you'd like.

As for the "plotholes"...evolution is not a theory of everything. It is a theory on how life changes from generation to generation. The common misconception is that it doesn't explain how life began. It's not supposed to, and doesn't even try.

 

[JohnRM]

Evolution is a high probability theory. Either it exists under God, nor not, but one would be foolish to deny that it is the probable truth.

 

[El_Machinae]

The god idea is merely an intellectual equivalent of throwing your hands up and giving up.

It doesn't have to be. It is internally consistent to think that 'something' created the infinitely complex universe that we live in, and create it such that humans would result. There is an infinite amount of information for scientists to discover, just to keep you happy.

The only real conclusions they have about God (that you don't) is that a) He's greater than the universe (much like a painter can create an internally-consistent painting), b) He's sentient and c) He cares. And you kinda have a)

You have to admit that 'something' created the Universe, something that you don't understand. Faithful people merely assume that this 'something' has attributes that make is greater than what you assume it to be.

If the faithful say "God created a universe that allowed abiogenesis", the scientists (faithful and non-faithful) can look at evidence for the "how". But science can never answer the "why". If the non-faithful say "Something created a universe that allowed abiogenesis", everyone can still answer "how", but not "why".

 

[Bozo Erectus]

I know why. Gods a farmer. The non living universe is the stalk that grows the fruit called Life.

 

[punkbass2000]

You have to admit that 'something' created the Universe, something that you don't understand.

Do I?

XCL