DocT2 - Ghandi goes Sid

Romeo’s start:

0 – Worker to Cow, nothing of interest. Settle on spot. Min on Writing, Warrior.
1 - Worker starts road
4 – Road -> Irrigation, SCI to 10%
IBT: Warrior -> Warrior
7 Delhi grows, Lux to 10%
IBT: Warrior -> Warrior
9
IBT: Border expansion
10 – Meet Arab Scout; they’re up BW and Pottery, miss Alphabet.
F10 reveals: Arabs, Korea, Spain, Cartaghinians, Vikings, Persia, Aztecs. So Alphabet isn’t worth holding back. Trade Pottery and 10gp for Alpha.
IBT: Warrior -> Settler
12 - Find Ivory to the East.
13 - Find 2nd city spot S of Delhi (Wheat, Game, River, lots of BG, Tobacco, little overloap)
14 – Find Incense pretty near. Great city spot, River, Rice, Wheat, 2 Incense.
Get notified that Spain starts Colossus.
16 – Dumb the Incense, Spain plops a city there. Spain is missing Pottery!
Buy BW for Pottery, 49gp and 4gpt.
17
IBT: Settler -> Granary
Arabs start Oracle.
20 Landscaping.
23 – Spain starts Oracle. Contact Carthage. Forget the Ivory, Spain got them all.
IBT:
Bombay: Warrior -> Worker
25
IBT:
Delhi Granary -> Settler
27
IBT:
Persepolis completes Pyramids.
28
IBT:
Madrid completes Colossus. Mecca Oracle.
29
IBT:
Delhi: Setter -> Settler
Bombay: Worker -> Temple?

Not that great. No luxes, no obvious great city spots, and 2 culture giants next door. Cartaghe builds Curraghs like mad and should have contacted everyone in reach. No trades available.

Lands
Save

Old start 4:

0 – Worker to Cow, found on spot. Warrior, Writing.
F10: Zulu, Americans, Japanese, Persians, Egyptians, Mongols, Aztecs. Monopoly on Alphabet!
1 – Road
4 – Road -> Irrigation; SCI to 10%
IBT: Warrior -> Warrior
7
IBT Delhi grows, Lux to 20%. Find Silks nearby at the Coast.
8
IBT: Warrior -> Warrior
9 - It’s a cluster of Silks! Meet Aztecs, trade CB, 19gp and 3gpt for Pottery. They lack Alphabet, and have WC.
IBT: Border expansion reveals Wheat W of Delhi.
11 – Aztecs have BW
IBT: Warrior -> Settler
17
IBT: Settler -> Granary
19
IBT:
Aztecs start Pyramids
20 Aztecs are up Masonry and The Wheel, still lack Alphabet.
23 – Found Bombay directly on one Silk, grab them all and beat the Aztecs by one turn. Start Curragh.
25 - Aztecs must research Alphabet, they offer less than every turn. Trade straight for BW.
IBT:
Delhi: Granary -> Settler
28
IBT:
Bombay: Curragh -> Worker
30 – 2470BC:

I actually like that one. The Aztecs are not expanding brutally fast. If we manage to grab red dot, we’ll have an absolutely insane city (Great Library, anyone?). Plus, I don’t fear flips as much with the Aztecs as neighbors than with Spain. Only problem could be us with aggressive Monty alone on a landmass…though there should be an IND Civ as well, since Monty got Wheel and Masonry the same turn.

Lands
save
 
Old start #4 looks very possible if we can seal our corner.

Waltzing Montezum, anybody?
 
I will take #4. My starts look decent, but just don't quite cut it.
 
Well, I've had about thirty starts I threw out because of terrain, or proximiy of neighbors, so I'll go with old #4 also.
 
You got it. Or, more accurately, I do. ;)

Should have the turns up late tonight.
 
I'm back after some server problems. I'm happy with what you decided already. :)

I tried to find a decent map, but the AI always ended up in my lap before I even got the first settler out.
 
I’ll assume that I’m playing ten, but actually, Doc got carried away and it’s already turn 32. So I guess I’ll play 8, since I’m anal and odd turn numbers bug me. :D

IHT – Well, with two cities, what does one say?

2430 bc (1) – Delhi settler -> warrior.

2390 bc (2) - :sleep:

2350 bc (3) – Delhi warrior -> settler.

2310 bc (4) – Bombay worker -> curragh. I meet Persia. He has Wheel, IW, Masonry, Myst, and WC. The three most useful would seem to be IW, Wheel, and Masonry (prebuild). I get Xerxes down to alphabet and 67g for Wheel. We’ll have a good shot at horses, as there is already four sources in view, one in Delhi’s second ring.

2270 bc (5) – Madras founded on red dot. Starts worker? Not too sure on this one…

2230 bc (6) - :sleep:

2190 bc (7) – Delhi settler -> warrior. Persians complete the Pyramids – hey, at least they’re on the same continent, right? America completes the Oracle.

2150 bc (8) – Tzintzuntzen is built where the new settler was heading.

Recap: Delhi can alternate warriors and settlers with a bit of MM towards the end of the settler. Wasn’t sure if we should start a GL prebuild in the new city, but I figured a worker would quickly pay off. Writing in 10, but the Aztecs already have it.

>>>SAVE<<<
 
Our "empire" :lol:
DocT21.JPG
 
I would send the next settler to the horses on the river. Then I would put one in the crook between Dehli and Bombay, or send another one west towards the mountains.
 
Geez, how could I miss this. Sorry dudes, my turns will come shortly :blush:
 
Start by lowering luxtax a notch, save us a whole shiny gold. Wonder where that settler is heading?

2110bc - Horses are connected.

Delhi Bubba the warrior -> settler

I don't know where to send the settler, so I just let him continue far to grab land.

2070bc - So there, Persia knows Writing.

1990bc - Bombay curragh -> curragh (worker will chop silk-forest) We might need some suicide dingies here. I saw a decent spot S by the Persians.

1950bc - Delhi settler -> settler

1910bc - We have a fair bit of tundra to our NNE and NW. Might get a few cities there, if only for commerce?

1870bc - Bombay curragh -> barracks
Madras worker -> barracks

I don't know the policy on SID, so if barracks are totally wrong, please change to whatever.

1830bc - Bangalore founded -> worker

1750bc - We learn Writing -> Lit at min?

Persia is build the Lighthouse.

Our scouting warrior spots unfamiliar borders, we might be able to trade next turn.

2 settlers are on goto. Change the barracks builds, I doubt they are of much value at this stage. And as I said, plenty of tundra to build ICS to enhance commerce, if we are quich enough :)

DocGandhi_1750bc.jpg
 
Got it. Play tomorrow.
 
Madras: I'd get a cheap Temple there, to keep it happy, and start a GLib prebuild. Dunno if we have Masonry already, though; but it could stay on max growth and Barracks for a while. Plus, one of the next Settlers should go to the Hill NE ist Madras' Gold hill, to pull in the Wheat.
A disturbing experience from my previous Sid trials:
The AI tends to attack the Human player in the AA. This is completely different to Deity. I'm not speaking of ill-defended cities, but from Deity-level well guarded ones; couple of Warriors and Spears.
Because of that, I'd like to get Iron Working and/or HBR ASAP (after Masonry, if we lack that). Min run on Literature, but don't finish research before the prebuild will get the GLib that turn.
 
At some point in challenging SGs, several players step up and say „We need a focus!“. They all agree on that, and everyone continues like he did before…(LKendter’s games make an exception here).

So, I’ll start that discussion:

“We need a focus!”

Here is mine:

Prolog:

I didn’t play much vanilla Civ3, and I played a total of 2 games in ptw. But I played hundreds of DyP games, and here the AI completely outexpands you already at Emperor (no Settler Factories possible, and the small food surplus means that AI growth boni really matter). Because of that, I never bothered with the RCP exploit, and the single-minded initial REXing. Instead, I learned to grab the good city spots in reach, to use specialized cities, and to fill in military producers later. IMHO Sid needs the very same tactics.
And, in DyP you cannot prebuild the Great Library (because you need to have a Library as prerequisite), thus you need to dedicate a city early on for it, and focus your Workers there. Looks quite similar to c3c on the higher levels…


1750.jpg
So, my plans are:

1) We already have 2 Settlers. We have to found 3 cities (red dots), possibly 4 (depending on the ? area), to grab all AI prime city choices – even Deity AIs don’t like distance 4 cities until there is no room left. We then have to place a few units on tiles the AI might settle (dark blue), and don’t need to churn out Settlers faster then we can really afford. Instead, we can slowly fill in more cities (blue, and yellow later)
Why do I prefer that? Because the AI is tempted to attack you when they are smaller but have more military, and when you have undefended cities anywhere. So the city/unit count ratio matters. And since even the smallest Sid AI Civ could eat us alive, we may not risk an early declaration. Sending out Settlers without a Defender is risky already; but leaving the city undefended and starting a Worker/Temple/Granary is suicidal. First build must be a token defender ASAP. Better is having a military producer for Vet Warriors, or better Spears. Bombay should indeed stay on the Barracks, it should be able to pull 5spt without much work.

2) I want a shot at the GLib. Madras is a city that could really get it, but it’s nothing but a waste of shields to even start it in a city that doesn’t make about 10spt. We need to focus all Workers on that city, mine all most of the bonus BGs and then the Gold Hill, get a Temple ASAP and join Workers to get it at least to size 5 within the next 10 turns. The 2 Civs we met so far know both Map Making already, so it’s not like we have much time left. We will be able to contact Japan in the next turns (the dark red border in the S must be Japan); we already can afford Masonry now, but the price should drop once we have another contact.

3) Terrain improvements in general:
* We’re chopping 2 Forests we need to work. Madras will benefit more from a Temple ASAP, and growth by working the Wheat after expansion, than wasting one out of 2spt by working a BG. Bombay should work the Silk forest for commerce and production.
* Never connect a spare resource until you want to trade it away. We already have 2 Silks connected, by all means avoid to connect our second Horses and 3rd Silks – they will be demanded anyway.

4) Techs, culture and treasure:
* We have 224gp and +12gpt. No running gpt deals with our neighbour. It’s pure luck Monty didn’t make any demands so far. We should get rid of most of our cash reserve, include a small gpt payment, and get our income up while spending it on research. That especially means our capital must be as big as possible. Not a 2->4 Warrior/Settler pump, but a 5->7 pump. We need 40 turns at max science for Literature ATM, that must improve.
* We need culture. I want to be able to settle a few cities with overlap with the Aztecs. They are not much ahead of us, and a Temple for them is not much cheaper than for us. I’d like to have a Temple in Madras, Delhi after the next Settler, and in any border city, even if we have to :whip: a citizen. Bangalore is a good example: I would get a Warrior there, then hire a specialist for 10 turns, and whip the Temple.
* Techs: We have lots of Hills/Mountains, so we have a good chance for Iron. However, we already know we have Horses, and we have a Horse UU, so I’d like to have Warrior Code and HBR more than to gamble for Iron. I vote for researching Literature at more than minimum (and turn it off to time it with the prebuild), buy Masonry once we meet Japan, and then try to get WC/HBR next.

Alternative plans?
 
Well, I'll kick in what little bit what I can.

First off, I have only recently started playing Conquests at the higher levels, no experience at higher levels on any of the other versions mentioned.

I agree with most of your points. We certainly need defenders. The screenie shows what - like 4 warriors? That's just begging for an attack on most levels....

The GL sounds nice, but I have to wonder about our chances. The ai will only need to make 240 shields to beat us to it. If we pull 10 shields at size 5, it will take us 40 turns. you'd have to figure that we can't afford to have more than 10-15 turns left on it when the ai starts it. I find it unlikely that we'll be the first to research it. It's a gamble, but one we have to take. If nothing else, we should (hopefully) have enough cities for a FP as a fallback.

RE: Money - Agree we need to get rid of it. We won't keep it anyhow, so we might as well get some use out of it.

RE: Culture - Although the pure cost of temples is about the same, that is somewhat mitigated by the relative cost. First, the Aztec cities will grow quicker, so the number of turns required may be very different. Second, the needs are very different, as they already have a small military, while we don't. Not saying we don't need them, but we also shouldn't just build them willy nilly.

RE: IW - I flat out disagree on this one. If we should expect an attack, then we need swords. Yes, we can already build horses, but a 30 shield horse against an 8 shield spear, or a 12 shield sword, is not something I really want to roll the dice on. Again I come back to relative cost. We simply can not win any war of attrition with those numbers. I don't want to build swords en masse, but I think that they should be our main offense, if possible. Horses are great if they retreat, but then it is essentially lost for 3-4 turns while it gets back to safety and heals.
 
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