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Does Race exist?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by haroon, May 8, 2019.

  1. haroon

    haroon Chieftain

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    You are right, while one group of population are moved to save their life, while the other migrated for a better chance/opportunity in life. But I think what Lexicus worried is when this differentiation is (mis)used as a rhetoric to squeeze (is it the right word?) the immigrant
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  2. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    Kind of, I guess. My basic point is that factually the distinction between these two things is not easy to make and only going to get harder over time - that is why it's important we understand that these treaties and the "refugee" framework we have in place arose in a specific set of circumstances. And so my fear is that dividing the discussion between refugees on the one hand and immigrants on the other only gives credit and rhetorical ground to the far-right, who have shown through e.g. Trump's de facto policy of shutting down the asylum application process that they won't bother even trying to make such distinctions anyway. I mean there have been people risking death to cross the Mediterannean for years and they are called "economic migrants" and greeted by "Fortress Europe" so I don't think this is an idle concern on my part.

    Is a person escaping a country controlled by kleptocrats where violence is routine, but who isn't under any specific imminent threat of violence a refugee or an immigrant? What if agriculture in their country is slowly being strangled by climate change? There are just too many wrinkles to this refugee-vs-immigrant distinction, I'm not sure it's really useful in the real world.
     
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  3. haroon

    haroon Chieftain

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    Agree with you completely, such distinction only serves when it benefits them, and can be neglected when it needed.

    This also pretty much question the immigrant vs refugee distinction by necessity differences which I mentioned in my previous post. Yes I agree, moving to save your life is a loose and relative condition, this can be apply in any condition, be that refugee or immigrant. Of course if it is not because of the matter of utmost important they will not put themselves at risk their life to cross the Mediterranean or South America border to reach either Europe or US.
     
  4. Gori the Grey

    Gori the Grey The Poster

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    Neither. I can't believe you're so far behind on the nomenclature. Such a person is an "illegal."
     
  5. red_elk

    red_elk Warlord

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    Refugee can't return back home, because he was either forcibly displaced from home country or fled from there.
    Immigrant just looking for another place to live, can always go back if he wants.
     
  6. Truthy

    Truthy Titular character

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    Oh yeah, that was a typo. I meant to say the probability in population A is 0.3 and the probability in population B is 0.7. I didn't realize it was a typo when you first quoted it two days ago.

    Yeah, Fst is still used for a lot of things, but for creating clusters, unsupervised fuzzy clustering is more popular nowadays as far as I know.

    There's another complication in the clustering I didn't mention before, but probably should have. The loci used in population structure research usually don't directly code for phenotypes, like skin color. They're actually from non-coding regions usually. So if you were wondering "how much of the variation between populations that these studies find is just unimportant stuff like skin color?", the answer is that I don't think many people directly use those parts of the genome (however, Lewontin did use loci from coding regions in his 1972 paper).

    But then you might also wonder "if these studies are mostly based on non-coding DNA, how can the clusters even mean anything with respect to race?" Well, the clusters sort of align with the traditional concepts even though you aren't just checking phenotypes. Also, there's a misconception that non-coding DNA is "junk DNA." It's not known exactly what large swathes of the genome do, but a lot of non-coding DNA regions are known to do something. For example, they can affect transcription factor binding, which can impact whether a gene is transcribed (i.e., converted into a protein). Overall, it seems very likely polymorphisms in non-coding regions do affect observable outcomes, in addition to being correlated with polymorphisms that code for observable traits.

    I think I agree with this.

    As an aside, here's an interesting article from 2014 arguing that clustering doesn't support race realism. Lewontin is actually one of the authors (the dude's still alive; he's 90). For one, they argue the term "clinal class" some people use is just a euphemism for "race" and it's oxymoronic. They also argue that traits used in the traditional concept of race often don't covary (e.g., maybe skin color and hair texture). But I dunno, I disagree with some of what they say. They're sort of vague and hand wavy a lot of the time.

    I agree, though to be fair, if you use someone's membership in a cluster you get a lot more information than just skin color or eye color.

    A lot of the other posts in this thread make me worried.

    I'm not sure I understand.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
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  7. haroon

    haroon Chieftain

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    @Truthy wait truthy, I'm outside and working, I'll get this post past midnight.
     
  8. haroon

    haroon Chieftain

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    Thank you for the article

    Of course, it just a simplified example, but we are agreed that the information that it may provides are strictly biomedical related, like the vulnerability toward certain disease or possibility to get certain inherited or genetical disease. However if you say it also gives information about peoples IQ, behavior, any non biomedical variable, that I will strongly disagree.

    I mean genetic classification only mirror implication that related to genetic, like biomedical, however if one argued like a nativist and claimed that it also implied the backwardness of certain race, certain culture, yada yada, that's when I strongly disagree.

    But from what I read I think you are no different than me.
     
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  9. Hehehe

    Hehehe Chieftain

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    Do you understand what fiscal net drain means? It means they cost your country money. I have the numbers for Finland and US (US numbers courtesy of Estebonrober, thanks for sharing). In Finland, the cost per immigrant is even higher, but we have less of them in total. In fact, Helsingin Sanomat, a center-left newspaper, recently did an article about immigrant crime rates. It's in Finnish, but that's the case with nearly all Finnish sources.

    https://cis.org/Report/Cost-Welfare-Use-Immigrant-and-Native-Households
    Any refugee that comes from, or through a safe country is an immigrant, and not a refugee. Finland doesn't border any unsafe countries, and thus we have zero obligation to take in any refugees.
     
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  10. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Well, depends which treaty. Finland isn't part of (say) NATO and therefore is under no mutual defense obligation (on that front) when it comes to help dilute the risks of taking in too many refugees at once. Just don't ask for help.
     
  11. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Morose & Lugubrious

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    I know what fiscal net drain means, but in order to create a meaningful argument you would have to point out how the fiscal net drain outweighs to productivity added to the workforce and the additional demand created by the migrants, not just for now, but looking 10 years in the future. you are attempting to show a multifaceted issue from one side only, which is arguing in bad faith.

    very convenient that you only have one single article in Finnish, but present yourself as an expert on the topic. I for my part spent months going through articles, official police data and census data in order to decide whether or not immigrants/refugees commit more crime than the native population.

    as it turns out, at least in Germany, "non-Germans" (nowadays they are classified as Zuwanderer, but this was back in 2017) commit more crime then Germans do, but then you factor in that many of those "non-Germans" are people that are in Germany illegally, people that came from other European countries borders, or are part of organized crime. Another factor is that everyone who passes a border illegally, lacks the necessary documents, and so on, is also a de-facto criminal , meaning crime rates for "migrants" are already inflated that way. If you however look at refugees as a group, they commit roughly the same amount of crime as native Germans do.

    Accepted Asylum Seekers are only 0,5% of all suspects and commit less crime than the native population. (accepted asylum seekers is not synonymous with refugee)

    https://www.zeit.de/news/2018-06/08/fluechtlinge-und-kriminalitaet-180608-99-636763

    https://www.bka.de/DE/AktuelleInfor...riminalitaetImKontextVonZuwanderung_node.html
     
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  12. Modder_Mode

    Modder_Mode Chieftain

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    You know, it really is incredible how someone can simply throw a racist label at someone else because they don't agree with them, people can and have lost jobs, future employment opportunities, relationships and not to mention a lifetime of stigma, and its done with such ease, worse of all, there's no consequences to what people like you do.
    What makes him a racist?

    I don't always grandiosely misrepresent, but when I do it is grandiose. Tell me again what any of that has to do with Professor James Flynn?

    I'm very cautious when it comes to posting links on forums, I was banned on another forum without warning because I posted a link that allegedly went against the forum rules, despite the rules never mentioning anything about it and despite the website linked too not even being controversial.

    Bezerker already posted the link: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/5/30/15591700/mass-incarceration-john-pfaff-locked-in

    Because there's a direct correlation between socioeconomics and crime. Once you take class out of the picture you can see how class drives these incarceration rates in the first place.
    Do you think there's evidence that economic disparities between blacks and whites is institutionalized/systemic racism?

    It would almost seem like you are advocating the removal or watering down of drugs laws? Do you think illegal drugs should be legalized?
    I don't do drugs, I never have and hopefully never will, so I don't know the personal effects of drug use, I do however know of a number of people who do/have done drugs and the impacts it has had.

    It depends on how you view multiculturalism and diversity. If people immigrated with similar values and culture then you will see it as a success, but its not because multiculturalism was successful its because they already shared those commonalities. But if the opposite occurs you will view this as a negative and will say that multiculturalism is a failure.
     
  13. Hehehe

    Hehehe Chieftain

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    I don't know about Germany, but Finland has little need for uneducated people, and what little we need, we can produce ourselves. The employment rates for Islamic immigrants are generally very low, even after 10 years. The Finnish economy simply does not need their input. If you have a time machine, and you can give me stats from 10 years in the future, then please, by all means. I, however, only have the present to work with. Many immigration proponents do seem to be banking on some magical integration, which supposedly will happen but never does.

    I thought this crime disparity is common knowledge. In any case, that's the problem with discussing stats from different countries: I don't speak German, so German links are useless to me. You don't speak Finnish, so Finnish links are useless to you. If I had to break it down, the link I gave you basically says that Iraqis are 12 times more likely to rape, and 10 times more likely to rape kids, something which is a hot topic here since there was a grooming gang scandal in Finland recently. Maybe it's a cultural thing, but in Finland gangraping little kids is frowned upon.

    In general, we've had the data for a long time. Like this study here, for example. It's in Finnish, but there is an English summary at the end, and I will be translating every part I'm citing here. I think that these charts, taken from the study, should sum this up nicely.

    Link to chart, just in case


    So where do I find a breakdown by offender nationality?
     
  14. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Morose & Lugubrious

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    Prove that they are uneducated instead of making baseless assumptions. Literally every refugee I've met has either succesfully finished an apprenticeship or was studying at university before they left.

    Ah, but it needs someone else's input? Obsolute nonsense. Every European nation is facing one issue: The demographic shift. We do not have enough young people in the workforce to care for the massive amount of retired people awaiting us. You cannot deny this, unless you are purposefully being stubborn.

    You talk like a snake, and wiggle like one, too. Your rhetoric is toxic to the utter maximum.

    yeah, I don't believe a word of this until I've seen some proper sources. since you have consciously left out any English speaking sources, I'll bombard you with some:

    German crime rate is the lowest it has been in 30 years, even with "migrant" crime factored in!

    https://www.thelocal.de/20180509/what-we-learned-from-this-years-crime-statistics-and-what-we-didnt

    Accounting for the above variables, the study concluded by illustrating that refugees (note by me: refugees does NOT mean foreigners/non-native), refugees are far less likely to commit crimes than the population as a whole. This reflects similar studies conducted elsewhere, which have indicated that immigrant populations on the whole are less likely to commit crimes than locals.

    https://www.thelocal.de/20181221/st...k-between-foreigners-refugees-and-criminality

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/30/upshot/crime-immigration-myth.html

    Police crime statistics

    https://www.bka.de/EN/CurrentInformation/PoliceCrimeStatistics/policecrimestatistics_node.html

    Foreigners more likely to be suspect in crime regardless of involvement:

    https://www.thelocal.de/20170926/wh...likely-to-be-suspects-in-sexual-assault-cases

    On rape:

    To answer these questions, DER SPIEGEL reviewed crime statistics, interviewed police officials, consulted academic experts and analyzed around 450 online news reports about purported sex crimes alleged to have been committed by asylum-seekers and immigrants. Our reporters also visited police stations, public prosecutors and courts to uncover the background behind the news reports and the ultimate outcome of any proceedings. Some cases were revisited up to five different times and in several instances, reporters also met with people involved in the cases for background interviews. The reporters then analyzed the documents and information together with data-journalism specialists and fact-checkers.

    When the term "rape" comes up, many people instinctively think of an unknown assailant pulling women into the bushes at night. But according to calculations by the Center for Criminology, a research institute run by Germany's federal government in conjunction with state governments, the alleged perpetrator is only a stranger in one-fifth of all reported rapes and serious sexual assaults. Most often, the alleged perpetrator is an acquaintance, friend or relative.

    So much for the shadowy "rapefugee". Almost all rape still happens in toxic relationships, marriages, sexualized friendships..

    The panel exists because Bavarian Interior Minister Joachim Herrmann announced shortly before the German federal election last September that the number of rapes and serious sexual abuses had risen in Bavaria during the first half of 2017 by 47.9 percent. He said 126 of the 685 crimes could be attributed to immigrants, 91 percent more than in the same period the previous year. The latter statistic roughly reflects the findings of the BKA, but the Bavarian crime statistics additionally count those who have been granted asylum as part of its figures for the category of immigrants.

    tl;dr: Reportings (that is the metric that is counted) of rape have increased significantly, yet immigrants commit roughly 1/5th of the sexual assaults. So they alone cannot account for that increase numerically. Does that mean that Germans are much more likely to rape in 2017 than they were in 2016? No, it doesn't. What really happened is that after Köln many German women realized that being groped did count as sexual assault. most were oblivious, and many judges simply counted groping as "insulting" or some other absolute minor charge. But that has changed, luckily.

    unless you want to believe that German's are getting significantly more rapey every year while somehow crime statistics on the whole are falling, you have to concede the point that rape statistics are inflated (note: for good reason), because what does or does not count as rape has changed significantly in the last decade, and even the last few years.

    huh, weird isn't it? you somehow cannot produce a single English speaking source on your "statistics", meanwhile I google around for two minutes and find official sources undermining my point. :)
     
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  15. Hehehe

    Hehehe Chieftain

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    You do realize that anecdotes aren't valid data, right?

    And how does importing unemployable people, who are a net drain, help that shift? If anything, it just makes things worse

    I'm just going to skip all of that, since it's not in English. That's fair right?

    Yes, that is exactly how grooming gangs operate. This isn't a refutation. Give me a breakdown by nationality.
    This is exactly why I'm asking you for a breakdown by the perpetrators country of origin. "Refugee" doesn't say much in and of itself. It doesn't tell us about the naturalization process. Did they gain German citizenship, and therefore they now count towards German crime statistics?
    Yes, overall crime rates have been going down since the 70's. None of this contradicts what I've said, which is that 3rd world immigrants are still over-represented in crime statistics.
    You undermined your own point? Look buddy, I gave you official sources, with English summary, and provided you with a translation of the exact charts. At this point, you're just jamming your fingers into your ears and screaming "laalalaa I can't hear you".


    So it seems like you cherrypicked refugees (Syrians), because it supports your argument
     
  16. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    We do have to compare like to like. It's hard when it comes to immigration, but I can see why people have standards. Ten years after being born, I don't know of any Canadian citizens that are not still economic drains for another decade. Even when viewed as an entire cohort, the 10 year olds that are economically productive are not capable of overwhelming the average out of negative

    I'm just saying it's hard to calculate net economic drain. Anyone native-born has a huge drain component on their resume before they start being productive. And at that point, we're mostly looking at the average. We live in a world where we pretend that people add net productivity on average, but we cheat because we are eroding the ecology in the process.

    I also don't want to dismiss the idea that some nations are better at integration than others. Finland has a long history of internal solidarity. Compare that to Canada, which has a good history of bringing in new immigrants, but has been incapable of integrating its native population.
     
  17. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy I swear..

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    Children are not drains, they are the appropriate anchor of communities. Money is one way to score, but it is not the game. I'm really very upset with our current Assclown for attempting to model German and Canadian immigration policy. We're not generally efficient with our economics, but we are, relatively, with our assimilation and for the most part I'd put it on not historically being evil/stupid about families being front and center of value, not God Money. Ah well, his organized competition is dropping off, I suppose that particular worship will mainstream and bigotize a bit more.
     
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  18. red_elk

    red_elk Warlord

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    Integrating its native population...
    Yes, native population usually doesn't like newcomers who want to integrate them somewhere.
     
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  19. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    I know. But 'integration' isn't necessarily a bad thing. As it is, we have two very different societies that prefer to remain separate instead of joining each other for mutual gain.

    I never said Canada failed to 'force' integration. I said they failed integration. A willing integration can always happen, you know ... and that's deemed a success.

    In Canada, there's no 'newcomer' with regards to native population. The two cultures have significantly changed since then. There're only historical victims and oppressors now.
     
  20. Hehehe

    Hehehe Chieftain

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    Two things to note: in Finland, something like 44% of all taxes are paid by the top 10%. So if we assume that all citizens use government services equally, that would mean that most people are a net drain. The mathematics of this get messy, but generally a lot of the immigrants that come in are unemployed, and most of the ones that are employed work in low skill jobs. These low skill jobs pay so little, that the taxes paid by the low wage immigrants are nowhere near enough to cover for the people who don't work. Second, Canada's immigration policies have been much more successful, not because Canada can integrate immigrants (it can't), but rather because Canada has been able to select and only let in successful immigrants.

    I'm not totally against all immigration, very selective immigration policies probably would be a net benefit for the host nation. The problem is that we aren't doing that.
     

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