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Does Race exist?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by haroon, May 8, 2019.

  1. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Warlord

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    "Integration" is a nice high level and therewith also fluffy concept imo.

    Integration into what ?

    and then I do not mean that I have to drive my car on the other side of the road in for example the UK, and how to tip money when I pay my beer.

    Integration means that you would be able to describe the culture and traditions of a country !
    Well... you can describe a lot of things that are indeed very practical in avoiding upsetting other people, or having unwanted & unexpected side effects.
    But if you live in a normal country you have already between your autochtone people a lot of culture sets... so you need not so much that common denominator, but the most frequent culture elements and traditions (and taboos).
    An ocean of fish when you integrate into an urban area.

    And hey... surprise surprise, foreign migrants "integrate" much better in urban areas than domestic mobility "migrants" from rural areas of the same country (at least in NL).

    And I did not even touch upon foundational culture.
    Still struggling with that
    And if I cannot properly describe that in words for myself... how do I explain that to others ?
     
    yung.carl.jung likes this.
  2. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Warlord

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    And indeed you should do it.
    If only that very small amount of on usefulness "filtered" migrants trickles in... you have at least the process of the widening of cultural tolerance started.
     
  3. Hehehe

    Hehehe Chieftain

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    That's a good point. I believe that any immigrants can learn their host country's language in 3 generations, but their economic position may or may not become comparable to the native population.


    So here's the thing: are immigrants harmful to their host society, because their host society has negative attitudes towards them? Or do people have negative attitudes towards immigrants because immigrants are harmful to their host society? Cause and effect
     
  4. red_elk

    red_elk Warlord

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    I understand your point, just reacted to the irony in sentence "integrating native population" :)
    And imagined 2100 year, Finnish Arabian Republic struggling to integrate natives into their society.
     
  5. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    There's a fallacy here, thinking that it's the taxpayers are the ones who contribute to society. It's not true. First off, there are two 'contributions'. There's the output of your productivity that goes into benefiting people locally. And then there's the reduction in consumption by someone so that a 'government worker' can partake of that consumption. If someone isn't paying taxes in a progressive system, but is employed in a profitable enterprise, there's a strong chance that they're not a 'drain'. I wrote about this in more depth below.

     
  6. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    Or you know you could just firmly assert that people are "ends in themselves" and as such considering anyone a "drain on society" is disgusting social darwinist poison
     
  7. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    Seriously! If being a fiscal drain (whatever that means in the social construct of money) is sufficient to render a person undesirable as a citizen then there are a lot of people at risk of having citizenship revoked.
     
    yung.carl.jung and Estebonrober like this.
  8. bernie14

    bernie14 Filter Manipulator

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    bernie14 said: 3/25/12.....As I see it, humans will try to justify anything to assume a position of power over others, including race, religion, wealth, physical prowess, the promise of equality and even intellectual wackery. this does not take away from the known genotypic and phenotypic differences amongst populations which in the 21st century, still cluster with a 99.84 concordance to self identified race/ethnicity.

    Every biology, anatomy and genetics class I ever took represented "race" as geographically representative populations and the term was neither absolute or monolithic or even exclusive to humans. It never implied that any cluster is/was superior or inferior to any other. however, seems to me the social construct view of race has embraced this racist/unscientific definition, so as to justify its dismissal. through the manipulation of language, race is now synonymous with rasicm....that's fine by me, we can use a more politically correct term, such as "distinct population segments", that is, until some moron claims there are factors that make one segment superior to another, and we can start all over again....it reeks of newspeak to me.....

    bernie14 said: 9/27/17.... perhaps the term "race" is not as useful as it was because of scientific advancement but soon enough, superiority and oppression will be claimed and clade will become cladism and haplogroups will become haplism....populationist?....genomist??

    No, that's what "racism" means...

    to my understanding, the term "race" -an identifiable group of people who share a common descent- , initially referred to heritable traits (which may include, but not limited to skin tone), as opposed to other "popular" or common sense thinking such as "they are dark cuz of the environment " or "well, god just made them that way".....

    To me race = racism, is essentially the same as saying darwinism = social darwinism.
     
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  9. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Revoking a citizenship is very different from not allowing one.

    But, I'm not entirely talking 'fiscal', but you always have to be careful about shifting the ratio of people your society can afford or not. You can only pay welfare out of profits. We're already over-consuming the planet, so nearly everyone is already a drain if viewed in too short of a timeframe.
     
  10. ulyssesSgrant

    ulyssesSgrant Chieftain

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    Why show someone that they are wrong by their own presuppositions when you could just firmly assert their position is disgusting! That'll show em!
     
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  11. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Warlord

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    In the case of hehehe his positions are so blatantly racist that the position is disgusting. Furthermore if you have never questioned why we only seem to measure civilization on monetary means than you might hold biased and uniformed positions that would lead to disgusting policies.
     
  12. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    Not if you consider all humans to be of equal worth regardless of where they happen to be born, but yeah, this is absolutely true if we accept that it's fine for governments to treat people differently based on accident of birth.

    All you're doing by showing racists they are wrong by their own presuppositions is showing them how to build internally-consistent arguments in favor of racism, so yeah, hard pass on that one.

    Well you are completely wrong and I daresay you don't understand the concepts of racism, Darwinism, or social Darwinism very well.
     
  13. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    Which falls apart when you examine that darwin's theories have had historical neutral (arguably good) uses and race (in the context of humans) has pretty much not. Only bad ones.
     
  14. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    Its difficult to logic someone out of being malicious. You shouldn't have the expectation that you can really. Lex is more hanging a yellow warning sign up to let other people know the floor is slippery.
     
  15. bernie14

    bernie14 Filter Manipulator

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    Speak for yourself, to many money may represent satisfaction, a sensation which long precedes civilization.

    a little better, but i still find your opinions to be cartoonishly superficial
    i think you are limiting your scope to a social context.
     
  16. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    With respect, no one does. And if it's not based on location, we treat people differently based on time.

    Government maintains a monopoly on violence and the ability to tax and spend. But they do so with the consent of the citizenry. If you want to use government to take something away from someone in order to give it to someone else, it's an uphill battle. And as I said, no one treats citizens of the world as if they were equals.
     
  17. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Warlord

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    What are you talking about? My point is that the fact that it is largely our only measure is FUBAR. Humans are more than their monetary value. You are more than your GDP output last year. Even if money is your thing in life, you are still more than that.
     
  18. bernie14

    bernie14 Filter Manipulator

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    Maliciousness can be highly logical
     
  19. bernie14

    bernie14 Filter Manipulator

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    i don't see people like that at all, perhaps you are projecting?
     
  20. ulyssesSgrant

    ulyssesSgrant Chieftain

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    When you don't challenge someone's actual worldview they just keep thinking it's correct and assume that is why it triggers the snowflakes. I'm not a racist-realist, I thought you were more woke than that. A racist is just a social construct created by progressives to demonize people. Embrace the greys instead of the blacks and the whites. Most of them are not innately bad people, they just think they are right, and get more confirmation and conviction from people who don't address their bad arguments but instead call them bad names.

    I was raised in a fundamentalist religious home. I was taught it and I believe it and it was just a part of who I was. Because of those types of religious beliefs, I held a lot of political positions in retrospect I find them disgusting. I didn't become a good person. I didn't see the light because someone yelled "you're a bigot" at me, I changed my mind about things because I stopped believing certain previous assumptions, and I started to think about things from other people's perspectives. I did this because some people, with a little empathy, actually met me where I was and addressed my perspective.
     
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