Doviello+

[cabbagemeister]

something that would greatly help them is giving them improved yields in tundra and ice, both for flavour and gameplay. they tend to spawn in cold regions with bad terrain, which puts them at a disadvantage right when they're supposed to be strongest. and starting in tundra is a HUGE handicap anyway. +1F for tundra and +1H for ice would be nice, but probably would make tundra too good so +1H for both would be good enough ( or maybe +1H for tundra and +1F in ice so they can somehow survive in icy regions )

It's a tough balance because +1F on tundra is too strong (they shouldn't treat tundra like grassland), but +1H doesn't solve the problem of them being perpetually food-poor. I like Valkrionn's concept of +F to resources, but I don't see why you need to introduce a whole new resource. Why not just give them a +1F, or even +2F, to the tundra resources (Deer/Fur)? That would make those unusable clusters of tundra Fur I always see near Doviello start positions into an actual worthwhile city site.

 

[Valkrionn]

It's a tough balance because +1F on tundra is too strong (they shouldn't treat tundra like grassland), but +1H doesn't solve the problem of them being perpetually food-poor. I like Valkrionn's concept of +F to resources, but I don't see why you need to introduce a whole new resource. Why not just give them a +1F, or even +2F, to the tundra resources (Deer/Fur)? That would make those unusable clusters of tundra Fur I always see near Doviello start positions into an actual worthwhile city site.

Resource? I didn't. I mean, sure, I DID add a new northern food resource (bison), but the Doviello don't get anything special from it.

What I did was make a new improvement, buildable in Tundra/Ice and does not remove forests. It can spread Bison, Deer, and Fur, gives a bit of food and some hammers. This is open to everyone.

Then I gave the Doviello +1 on this improvement. Lets them get some food out of tundra if they work at it, and lets them go FoL (most thematic religion for them is a variant of FoL) without handicapping them.

 

[Silaor]

I'm in the middle of a game with the Doviello, and I killed a few beasts with Brigit but she doesn't seem to get "animal promotions". I killed maybe 5 sabertooth and two bears.

Bad luck, bug, feature ?

 

[Afterthought_bt]

I'm in the middle of a game with the Doviello, and I killed a few beasts with Brigit but she doesn't seem to get "animal promotions". I killed maybe 5 sabertooth and two bears.

Bad luck, bug, feature ?

I can't remember off hand, but I suspect that only live Doviello units can gain the promos. As Brigit is an Angel, she isn't alive, so that would be why.

I'm sure someone else can verify that.

 

[Sephi]

yes, only living doviello units

 

[seizer]

Does the getting spells from drakes thing work? I've killed a lot of drakes, and still no spells. Bad luck?

 

[Medicine_Man_55]

Suggestion: Give the Doviello +1 hammer from tundra.

This makes tundra at least equal to plains for the Doviello civilization. In theory, they can irrigate more land and make up some of the lost hammers from their civilization bonus.

Suggestion: Make the Doviello Camp improvement provide +1 food from resource tiles.

 

[Fafnir13]

I was reminded the other day of a problem I noticed with the early game Doviello. Once you research bronze working, you can only build Sons of Asena. The problem here is that you don't always have the hammers to plunge straight into full production on second tier units. Even if your capital does, other cities probably won't in the early game. This creates several problems including the loss of cheap fodder units, enemy civs being able to out produce in military units, and an inability to quickly build troops on the frontier.
Given these issues, is there any reason for blocking beastmen?

 

[Sephi]

I think it is game mechanics. Can't remember any special block for beastmen.

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

Something that may help you here Fafnir13: Get to the Undercouncel fast and vote for slave trade - buy an army of slaves and upgrade them as needed. Adopt slavery civic asap for this same reason. I have used captured workers during conquests and upgraded on the fly so that I wouldn't run out of forces. Dont let your gold ever drop below 200 so that you can have it when an event or upgrade need arises...

 

[Fafnir13]

I think it is game mechanics. Can't remember any special block for beastmen.

I think it's because they are labled as obsolete or some such. Much like the Moroi used to be. Hmm...on that subject...

*Dig Dig Dig*

Aha! Found it. Old thread I posted about the Doviello on the main mod. It got side-tracked by the Moroi issue, bu it does contain Kael's opinion on the Doviello matter:

This is a balance issue. If you could still build warriors players with enough gold would never build anything but, and then upgrade them (rather than spend the additional hammers on actual sons or battlemasters). So its a bit of a limit on an already awesome mechanic.

To which Zechnophobe replied:

I think you think this mechanic is more awesome than it is, at least in strength terms. You say "With enough gold" but that is a balancing factor like anything else. "with enough gold" you could build nothing but disciples, and upgrade them to priests. The whole point is to give the Doviello something unique to do, to make them more effective at producing high level troops. By Taking this away as they progress, it really negaitvely effects the play experience... the further you get into the game, the less fun they are to play.

@Sephi: I don't know where your opinion lies on the matter. I've really liked the direction you've taken with most things in WM, so maybe I'll get lucky with this one as well.

As for how to unblock them, I thinks it's just the regular blocking that occurs when a unit is made obsolete. Some more digging on the forums pulled up the tag "<bNeverObsolete>1" that supposedly makes it so a particular unit will never go obsolete.
Were I a modder I'd test it out, but I'm not so knowledgeable on such things.

 

[Afterthought_bt]

I definitely am on Kael's side here - it's cheap as chips to upgrade beastmen to Sons of Asena. It only costs, what? 40 gold?

The whole thing is the trade off between hammers for production and gold for upgrading. It should always cost more in total (including original build price) to upgrade a unit rather than build it fresh. I'd have thought that was kind of self evident really - the advantage of upgrading is you keep xp and promos, and also it is immediate rather than having to wait for it to be built.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I think that's nonsense. everything should be set to neverobsolete. player should be able to choose whatever he wants to build provided he has the needed techs/buildings/resources/whatever.

 

[Afterthought_bt]

I think that's nonsense. everything should be set to neverobsolete. player should be able to choose whatever he wants to build provided he has the needed techs/buildings/resources/whatever.

My point, which I think you missed, is that it should never be cheaper to build a unit and then upgrade it, rather than to build the upgrade straight off.

So, sure, make nothing ever go obsolete (and clutter up the building options as much as possible...), but then also change upgrading costs and build costs so as to fit the above sentence!

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

how is it cheaper? you still need the gold, so it all comes down to if you have lots of production or lots of gold. they don't really seem equatable, and provide the user with some added choice. although I do agree that some upgrade costs could use a tweak.

the cluttering of the building options is an issue as well, yeah. I'm pretty sure Grey Fox created a system that fixes that which is now in RifE... maybe some caring soul will port that over. we should blackmail Valk or something

 

[Sephi]

how is it cheaper?

there is a trait that halves upgrade prices

 

[Valkrionn]

how is it cheaper? you still need the gold, so it all comes down to if you have lots of production or lots of gold. they don't really seem equatable, and provide the user with some added choice. although I do agree that some upgrade costs could use a tweak.

the cluttering of the building options is an issue as well, yeah. I'm pretty sure Grey Fox created a system that fixes that which is now in RifE... maybe some caring soul will port that over. we should blackmail Valk or something

That's actually one block of code in the DLL, and a small bit of art.

It's all in the LaunchProductionPopup code.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

there is a trait that halves upgrade prices

yep and only Mahala has it. Ingenuity does exactly what it is supposed to do, how is that an issue? should we also nerf dwarves cuz they have ingenuity?

if ingenuity is an issue for the doviello, then take it away from her and give her something else... but upgrading stuff from warriors when you have ingenuity just means you're using your trait wisely, I don't see how that can be considered a balance issue. besides, ingenuity is what makes mahala so much fun to play compared to poor charadon, and I really don't think anyone considers her overpowered

 

[Fafnir13]

My point, which I think you missed, is that it should never be cheaper to build a unit and then upgrade it, rather than to build the upgrade straight off.

But it is. For everyone, not just the Doviello.
Given a bit of testing, hammers from hurrying production seem to come at a cost of 3 per 1 . Trying to build something before it has had a chance to accrue at least one turns worth of hammer incurs a 50% increase to the multiplier, or 4.5 per 1 . I'm going to ignore that 50% increase in the next bit for clarity. If you want, imagine a city with 1 production at take off 3 from the total.

Warrior: 25 , 75
Axeman: 60 , 180
Champion: 120 , 360

Then, there's the upgrade cost. I don't know what fancy formula it uses, but the values are:

Warrior----->Axeman 75
Warrior----->Champion 195
Axeman----->Champion 125

The Doviello are mostly the same when it comes to the production costs with the slight difference of the battlemaster.

Beastman: 25 , 75
Sons of Asena: 60 , 180
Battlemaster: 150H , 450

Why the battlemaster is more expensive then a champion is beyond me. Champions get a +25% vs melee. Battlemasters get a +50% on tundra. That's the only difference I can see. While its a larger bonus, it is far more situational and doesn't seem worth a 25% increase to cost.
Anyways, Doviello upgrades are where the big differences hit.

worker----->Beastman 20
Beastman----->Sons of Asena 40
Sons of Asena----->Battlemaster 80

So beastmen roughly get a 50% (46.6%) decrease (40 vs 75 ) to their upgrade cost. Sons of Asena get a a 36% reduction (80 vs 125 ), but that's not considering the extra a Battlemaster costs. When that's taken into account, you get roughly back into the 50% (55.5%) range.
Essentially, the Doviello upgrade scheme is like having ingenuity for free.

So, if its a balance concern, why are we not concerned about the ingenuity trait? Unlike the Doviello, any other civilization can continue to build their warrior units after bronze working. If they have the ingenuity trait, they can upgrade these units for less then the Doviello.

Warrior----->Axeman 38 gold
Warrior----->Champion 98 gold
Axeman----->Champion 63 gold

So, if the ingenuity trait isn't a balance issue, then Doviello being able to build beastmen throughout the game shouldn't be one either. Sons of Asena don't obsolete, so why beastmen?

The only time the Doviello upgrade system becomes truly evil is when they have the ingenuity trait. 20 for warrior to become a son? Yes please!
However, is it really any more evil then any of the other nasty combinations in the game?
It might be, actually. Maybe drop the base reduction the Doviello get from around 50% to around 30%. Thoughts?

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I feel that the battlemasters need a tweak. melee line is supposed to be their main strength, and yet their champion UU is worse than regular champions since tundra bonus is hardly useful while bonus vs melee is huge! to add insult to injury, they are also more expensive than champions. what the...?

to make things interesting, I suggest that battlemasters be cheaper to build than regular champions, which should play very well with the doviello strength of immediately turning newly conquered cities to unit factories without need for buildings first. how does 100H instead of champions' 120 sound?