Dresden Memorial

[Stapel]

A question for Germans and others:

Why can't you compare the Dresden bombing with Hiroshima, Vietnam, Bagdad, or what ever you don't like about American warfare, without being a neo-nazi / ultra rightwinger?

I'm affraid I have to conclude the German established politics once effectively do everything feed neo-nazism, in there over-done anxiety to prevent it.

 

[blackheart]

Pardon my ignorance, but what happened at Dresden?

 

[Stapel]

Pardon my ignorance, but what happened at Dresden?

35.000 German civilians were bombed to death by the British and Americans in february 1945.

In the world history forum you should be able to find a dozen discussions on the question whether it was a war crime or not.

 

[Steve Thompson]

Dresden, well basically, the Americans and British bombed the hell out of it in Feb. 1945 with - I think - incendiary bombs, after the Russians kept pressing for it. There was no real reason for it at all, no industrial targets or military importance. The aim was to kill a lot of civilians and terrorize the Nazis into giving up, even though it was obvious that the war would be over soon anyway. There were oodles of refugees in the city, and I think at least 30,000 people died. Not the deadliest Allied air attack on Germany, but certainly the most senseless.

 

[Steve Thompson]

I'm affraid I have to conclude the German established politics once effectively do everything feed neo-nazism, in there over-done anxiety to prevent it.

I must agree!

 

[Stapel]

Note:
I don't like the idea of this thread ending up in a debate about justification of 'Dresden'. We have other threads for that.
What puzzles me: The news we get here (from GERMAN sources) reports that many people use this memorial day to demonstrate against American behaviour in different moments in history. These people are all labelled as neo-nazis (maybe they all are, maybe most, maybe many, maybe some, maybe hardly any). The German established political system is usually very keen on forbidding anything that smells like neo-nazism.

My point is that they more or less stimulate people into neonazism.
What if I happen to think the USA sucks from a somewhat left-wing point of view (I DO NOT, btw)? I think I then would have the right to compare the Dresden bombings with other 'mistakes' made by Americans in the past during warfare, without being labelled by the government as a neo-nazi.

 

[blackheart]

Note:
I don't like the idea of this thread ending up in a debate about justification of 'Dresden'. We have other threads for that.
What puzzles me: The news we get here (from GERMAN sources) reports that many people use this memorial day to demonstrate against American behaviour in different moments in history. These people are all labelled as neo-nazis (maybe they all are, maybe most, maybe many, maybe some, maybe hardly any). The German established political system is usually very keen on forbidding anything that smells like neo-nazism.

My point is that they more or less stimulate people into neonazism.
What if I happen to think the USA sucks from a somewhat left-wing point of view (I DO NOT, btw)? I think I then would have the right to compare the Dresden bombings with other 'mistakes' made by Americans in the past during warfare, without being labelled by the government as a neo-nazi.

It's like if you protest the Israeli occupation of Palestine you're labeled an anti-semitist (anti Jewish). To hell with what government thinks.

 

[privatehudson]

There was no real reason for it at all, no industrial targets or military importance.

I beg to differ. There were pleanty of industrial targets, and it was an important transport point for the country and therefore Armed forces. Now these may not have been the main aim of the allied commanders, but it certainly was a viable target by the rationale used during the war. I do believe the bombing did nothing to end the war sooner, but I do not agree with the notion that Dresden was devoid of any legitimate targets whatsoever. The raids just did not make them the primary target.

edit: Appologies to the thread creator as I did not see his point about debating Dresden till after this post

As to the original question, I compare them to Nagasaki as unessecary and regretable acts during war. I don't compare them to Hiroshima as I believe that to have been necessary compared to other options to hand. I do tend to think that people who compare the Holocaust to Dresden directly are very wrong, but not directly neo-nazis or similar for that alone (even if it does reflect in a small way the arguments of such deluded people). Part of the whole neo-nazi thing is to reduce/deny the horror of the holocaust, another to point to the crimes done by the allies and try to make out that Hitler was in reality no worse than Churchill for example.

Specifically, I believe someone that would make such a sweeping judgement of another without further information on them to be rather stupid (or perhaps drunk!). As to why it is done, I would suggest it's simply an easy way of dodging points you raise that they do not like. It's easier to insult someone than debate with them. However, at the same time I think others are too quick to loosely ascribe similarities between situations without thinking things through. People are a little too eager sometimes to compare any recent bombing campaign to Dresden or Hiroshima to try and make it appear worse than it is.

 

[Panda]

Note:
I don't like the idea of this thread ending up in a debate about justification of 'Dresden'. We have other threads for that.

Yet you must admit that it is not irrelevant. Nobody sane would claim the NS-regime wasn't evil, but just because you fight it doesn't make you automatically a paladin of virtue, especially if you use strategies that kill hundreds of thousands, even millions of people. Heck, even former US secretary of state McNamara, one of the architects of the US strategic bombing techniques, admits in the documentary Fog of War that had the US lost WWII they would have been charged with war crimes.

My point is that they more or less stimulate people into neonazism.

What if I happen to think the USA sucks from a somewhat left-wing point of view (I DO NOT, btw)? I think I then would have the right to compare the Dresden bombings with other 'mistakes' made by Americans in the past during warfare, without being labelled by the government as a neo-nazi.[/QUOTE]

I'm sure everybody remembers the analogy used by the anti-war protestors just before the US invaded Iraq: "The Iraqi soldiers don't wan't to fight for Saddam, they're just being pressed into service. Hence, fighting Iraqis is wrong." Yet, saying something similar about Wehrmacht soldiers turns you into a nazi?

 

[privatehudson]

Heck, even former US secretary of state McNamara, one of the architects of the US strategic bombing techniques, admits in the documentary Fog of War that had the US lost WWII they would have been charged with war crimes.

That's not really saying too much, anyone who loses in war usually gets the short end of the stick

 

[Panda]

That's not really saying too much, anyone who loses in war usually gets the short end of the stick

Ever since the Romans. And the winners white-wash everything concerning themselves.

 

[E-Raser]

As a German I might tell you it is boiling today and it will grow cold soon.
Similar aniversarys are always misused for propaganda from neo nazis and I guess our gov makes generally no mistake with paying attention to those attempts.
Nevertheless you may consider the Dresden bombing wrong without being considered a nazi. But you'll also have to blame the bombing of London and the siege of Leningrad the same.

 

[kronic]

Note:
I don't like the idea of this thread ending up in a debate about justification of 'Dresden'. We have other threads for that.
What puzzles me: The news we get here (from GERMAN sources) reports that many people use this memorial day to demonstrate against American behaviour in different moments in history. These people are all labelled as neo-nazis (maybe they all are, maybe most, maybe many, maybe some, maybe hardly any). The German established political system is usually very keen on forbidding anything that smells like neo-nazism.

My point is that they more or less stimulate people into neonazism.
What if I happen to think the USA sucks from a somewhat left-wing point of view (I DO NOT, btw)? I think I then would have the right to compare the Dresden bombings with other 'mistakes' made by Americans in the past during warfare, without being labelled by the government as a neo-nazi.

Actually, those who were demonstrating are right wing extremists. I read it has been the largest neonazi demo in the history of the FRG (4,000 protestors). The whole political elite of our far right wing parties delievered some speeches claiming that more than 200,000 people died and that stuff.

The problem with remembering Allied war crimes is that these far right people always try to make use of it for their fascist aims. That makes it basically impossible for anyone to participate.

But you're right. The established parties are at a complete loss as to what to do about neonazism. This is amazing given the fact that the far right is very weak.

And from a left wing point of you are neonazis far more evil than the bombings. The past doesn't play an important role for Germany's far left. They shouted today in response to the neonazis: "Bomber Harris, do it again!".

 

[Mario Feldberg]

Note:
My point is that they more or less stimulate people into neonazism.
What if I happen to think the USA sucks from a somewhat left-wing point of view (I DO NOT, btw)? I think I then would have the right to compare the Dresden bombings with other 'mistakes' made by Americans in the past during warfare, without being labelled by the government as a neo-nazi.

Ehm, most of the bombers were British, not American. IIRC the destruction of Dresden was primarly a British operation.
The people who use this event to protest ARE nazis. The protest isn't about bashing America it's more like "see, the other side was just as evil".

 

[SeleucusNicator]

It always amazes me that Germany tries to fight Nazism by banning political parties and activities.

It seems a bit hypocritical, doesn't it?

 

[Stapel]

Nevertheless you may consider the Dresden bombing wrong without being considered a nazi. But you'll also have to blame the bombing of London and the siege of Leningrad the same.

This was the reaction I hoped to get .
Here you explicitely say you will be labelled as a neonazi, if you regard the bombing of Dresden as a crime, without doing so for London or Leningrad.

I disagree with it. I think it is perefectly fine to consider the Dresden bombing wrong, WITHOUT BLAMING ANYONE FOR THE BOMBING OF LENINGRAD OR LONDON. (not that I do, but I think it is a fair stance for people to have, wihtout immediately labelling them as neo-nazis).

One argument people could use is that the bombing of London or the Siege on Leningrad was planned and ordered by a dictatorial regime, whereas the bombing of Dresden was planned and ordered by democracies.

 

[Mise]

It always amazes me that Germany tries to fight Nazism by banning political parties and activities.

It seems a bit hypocritical, doesn't it?

What's worse is when Neo-Nazis use the freedom of liberal democracy to impose a racist dictatorship...

 

[Stapel]

Ehm, most of the bombers were British, not American. IIRC the destruction of Dresden was primarly a British operation.

I think you are right, but it's not too important.

The people who use this event to protest ARE nazis.

They are? Or do non-nazi protesters ahve no choice but join this neo-nazi march?

The protest isn't about bashing America it's more like "see, the other side was just as evil".

They have a point, don't they? (as long as you do not comapre the bombing with the holocaust, that is)

 

[Scuffer]

The bombing of Dresden was from the same principle as the bombing of London (and Plymouth, and Liverpool, and Portsmouth, and anywhere of military or cultural importance in Britain, and no doubt anywhere else across the continent on both sides too).

That aim was to damage the war machine of that country. Through the destruction of people, factories, equipment, transport and morale. This was a world war, and not just between countries. This was a war between populaces.

Dresden was of the same intent as German bombing, and equally as justifiable - whatever your standpoint. Mine is that I am too far removed to have any realistic stand, and I would prefer the future to the past.

 

[TFIH]

It's just a shame it wasn't a nuclear bomb they dropped instead of incenidary bombs.
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