Dresden, Germany: Police quells Protests against Nazi Rally

[Terxpahseyton]

But communist = facist
Why would they fight and protest each other it makes no sense whatsoever. Just form a non aggression pact with each other and let the love begin. ..... oh wait

Did you have to do that?
We don't need the 100th edition of why Communism does not equal Nazism.

 

[GamezRule]

Plz explain.

 

[Zardnaar]

Communists and Fascist should eb allowed to march around and hollar whatever they like as long as they do it peacefully and obey the law (no Swastika's in Germany).

I hate communism buyt if they want to come and knock on my door and hand out leaflets or demonstrate in a peaceful manner so be it. Personally I think commies are jealous cause the Nazi's had the snazzier uniforms. If you think its ok to violently throw rocks at a Nazi rally I hope you think its OK for me to do the same at a commie rally. Commies killed a few mmore people than Nazi's and you can't weasel around that fact. Allied troops didn't make it to the gulags and take photos of mass graves which are starting to turn up in eastern Europe/Siberia.

As to Dresden it wasn't really neccessary since Germnay had already lost the war at that point. Doesn't stop the neo Nazi's pulling figures out of their ass to try and magnify the casualties.

 

[FriendlyFire]

As to Dresden it wasn't really neccessary since Germnay had already lost the war at that point. Doesn't stop the neo Nazi's pulling figures out of their ass to try and magnify the casualties.

In "Total war" situation the deliberate mass bombing of civilians by this stage in the war was more or less accepted. Goring himself wonder why the allies DIDNT repeat the dresden 1000 bomber raids he admitted that had the allies choose to execute another then or so raids Germany would have likely ended the war quicker and expressed suprise that the allies (UK and US) had not done so.

The really suprising thing is the Nazis deliberately keep there civilians in the dark. Construction of defences measures were seen as an act of spreading "false panic" people were conscripted to there jobs and prevented from leaving, in fact refugees fleeing were denounced as "fear mongers".

 

[metatron]

So, what do you think?
Just another day in germany Saxony?

Saxony is a hyper-conservative, reactionary mess.
Roughly as bad as Carinthia. Arguably even worse.

should police protect neo nazi rallies?

Yes of course.
Protecting =/= brutally abusing its opponents though.

why do they always escalate clashes with counter-protestors on such occasions?

We have a serious problem with our police shifting towards being an "conservative" (i.e. fascist) mob, particularly in the east.
I guess that's part of becoming an Anglosphere associate.

should the nazi rally have been allowed in the first place?

Yes. It's a thing called freedom of speech.
As long as they don't commit Volksverhetzung as part of the ralley, which apparently they don't.
If you feel they do, yet again, please protest Saxony's CDU judges and CDU attorneys instead of that silly rally.

do you think the neo-nazis attacking the cultural center with no police in sight while antifascists get the tear gas treatment is typical or was a one off event and mistake?

The cultural center of Saxony virtually is conservative and authoritarian in a quasi-fascist way. That the Saxon CDU isn't under continuous Staatsschutz supervision is only testimony to the failure of institutions.

Unfortunately, you can't forbid Nazi demonstrations by law. Laws are flawed. Sometimes things are legal, but immoral and sometimes things are illegal, but moral. Like stopping a Nazi demonstration by civil disobedience.

No, it's nonsense, not moral.
Of course i do sympathise. But the real issue here is how both major parties, particularly in the east, particularly in Saxony, particularly the CDU fail very hard at upholding any useful value system.
Civil unrest should focus on fixing the values in the public consciousness not on further devaluating human rights and core concepts of a civil society by prioritising on manpower based shouting match strategies as political means.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

The cultural center of Saxony virtually is conservative and authoritarian in a quasi-fascist way. That the Saxon CDU isn't under continuous Staatsschutz supervision is only testimony to the failure of institutions.

Erm.... what?
Grew up in Chemnitz, lived in Dresden a couple of months, know people living in Leipzig.
And I have to ask again - what?

 

[metatron]

Erm.... what?
Grew up in Chemnitz, lived in Dresden a couple of months, know people living in Leipzig.
And I have to ask again - what?

I'm sure there are (some) nice people everywhere. If that was what you wanted to say.
And probably you expierienced an difference between Chemnitz and rural Saxony anyway...

 

[Formaldehyde]

We have a serious problem with our police shifting towards being an "conservative" (i.e. fascist) mob, particularly in the east.

That doesn't surprise me. They are picking the more authortarian group.

I guess that's part of becoming an Anglosphere associate.

It is certainly true in the US.

 

[Virote_Considon]

We have a serious problem with our police shifting towards being an "conservative" (i.e. fascist) mob, particularly in the east.
I guess that's part of becoming an Anglosphere associate.

If y'all remember correctly, it was distancing yourself from associating with the Anglosphere which led to you getting a Nazi government in the first place.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I'm sure there are (some) nice people everywhere. If that was what you wanted to say.

WTH? is more like what I wanted to say. Care to explain what I quoted a post earlier? Because right now I can't wrap my head around it and feel like I am missing something.

 

[metatron]

WTH? is more like what I wanted to say. Care to explain what I quoted a post earlier? Because right now I can't wrap my head around it and feel like I am missing something.

To avoid the drawn out argument we could have, just answer me this question:

Suppose you are an immigrant, say... a gay Mosambican, do you want to live in Freiberg or Aurich?

Really if you can't see how Saxony has a severe problem and by normal standards virtually no place in Saxony except the urban centers you listed is liveable i will not enlighten you.
I could bombard you with the countless cases of neonazi crimes being tolerated or endorsed by the rural Saxon public and insufficiently checked by Saxon "police" and then debate the unprovable thing, the relative absensce of those deeds and that mentality in other parts of our nation. But i'm reluctant to do that, given the amount of time and - likely - fruitless effort involved.
But, on second thought: No, Saxony isn't that special, but in good company of two other states.
P.S: Please note that by Lower Saxon standards Verden is allready very infamous for its "friendly citizenry"...

 

[Luckymoose]

I wish Germany would stop being so up in arms about the Nazis and learn to accept it. Give some freedom so my grand strategy games can have genocide and swastikas in them.

 

[metatron]

I wish Germany would stop being so up in arms about the Nazis and learn to accept it. Give some freedom so my grand strategy games can have genocide and swastikas in them.

That's really another matter, since it's perfectly allowed to have Swastikas and all that in any remotely educational context. Say in a TV report on neonazis or in a documentory on the 3rd Reich or in a textbook.
So this is really about boneheaded (i.e. old) politicians not appreciating the educational value of games.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

To avoid the drawn out argument we could have, just answer me this question:

Suppose you are an immigrant, say... a gay Mosambican, do you want to live in Freiberg or Aurich?

Really if you can't see how Saxony has a severe problem and by normal standards virtually no place in Saxony except the urban centers you listed is liveable i will not enlighten you.

Sorry but this is just so ... so stupid nonsense. I know plenty of people who did not or don't live in urban centers and find it perfectly liveable. And I ask you to name even one neonazi crime endorses by the local population. I know of a number of cases which were insufficiently investigated and a few where local population did not live up to its civil duties. Which is on each occasion terrible, but in no way any justification for what you concluded. And in no way something that reflects the usual experience of living in Saxony. And how you characterized the Saxon CDU or the Saxon "heart of culture" remains incomprehensible. Not just something I find exaggerated and where we have to engage in long and uncomfortable discussion about relativities, but incomprehensible. Meaning for me there are right now two possibilities assuming that you don't just like to be a ridiculous sensationalist (which you never appeared to be): You know about some shocking and influential aspect of Saxony and its public institutions totally unknown to me or any Saxon I know or you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Regarding your question: I don't know anything about Aurich except its location. Which - it seems in contrast to you - I don't find a sufficient base to make a meaningful judgment on (and I find this question to be pointless in relation to what you claimed). But I do you the favor and just ignore those concerns and say Aurich for it being likely to have a healthier economy and less racism.

In the end a few examples of Saxon people I personally know: two Vietnamese Saxon guys who are good friends of mine are doing fine in Saxony and the black cousin of another good friend did fine as well in Saxony. And I also happen to know a bisexual guy who was in the same school in the same age group as me and appeared to do very fine as well. Both the Vietnamese and the black guy already encountered at least one point in their life where they faced racism in form of some stupid comment. However, for both it has been the exception, both have no fear to go anywhere at night and both don't feel like having some kind of disadvantage because of their race.

Actually, there is one more thing to say: I have heard of certain places other races or homosexuals can not feel secure moving through the streets at night and I am sure they exist. The point is - those places don't represent Saxon culture as you seem to think. Not at freaking all.

 

[Communisto]

I'm gonna be very careful with it, but now that im back I'm going to address what you said

This simplification would only stand a chance of not obscuring the truth if the actions of Germany had forced the Allies to mass fire bomb German cities. Which of course is nonsense.

I agree with you, Germany did none of those things. Which is why I didnt say "Germany killed those people." National socialism on the other hand, absolutely forced a circumstance of total war. Hitler even said that he would make Germany great or destroy it in the process. And I think you know how that turned out.

I don't think you realize what consequences it would carry if a society embraced this "ideal" of yours. Your hatred may be rooted in a good cause, but this does not change its poisoning nature.

If I were to make this same point about child rapists would you be saying the same thing?

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I agree with you, Germany did none of those things. Which is why I didnt say "Germany killed those people." National socialism on the other hand, absolutely forced a circumstance of total war. Hitler even said that he would make Germany great or destroy it in the process. And I think you know how that turned out.

I must say this sounds plausible. I concede the point to you.

If I were to make this same point about child rapists would you be saying the same thing?

Yes.

 

[Communisto]

You are a better man than I, SiLL

 

[Leonel]

I find it amazing that they weren't able to comemerate their dead ancestors. Everyone should have the right to demonstrate and it is the police job to secure that right. Unfortunately left wing extremists don't like freedom of speach.

I highly suspect it isn't about honoring ancestors, considering these were "ancestors" that systematically exterminated people with brutal efficiency. I mean you don't have people honoring Pol Pot because he wanted to restore Khmer pride in the people. There's a whole lot more to Germanic heritage and far more worth while than Nazism.

 

[metatron]

But I do you the favor and just ignore those concerns and say Aurich for it being likely to have a healthier economy and less racism.

Erm, it's a hot contender for "western Germany's poorest circuit".
But, well, since you are implying the economy was a significant factor: Why would Saxony have such a bad track record in terms of neo-nazi crimes despite its relatively healthy economy?

two Vietnamese Saxon guys

Oh, please. Haven't German Vietnamese been stressed enough as supposed "evidence" for people not being racists.

and the black cousin of another good friend did fine as well in Saxony.

Leipzig, Dresden or small town Saxony?

Actually, there is one more thing to say: I have heard of certain places other races or homosexuals can not feel secure moving through the streets at night and I am sure they exist. The point is - those places don't represent Saxon culture as you seem to think. Not at freaking all.

Maybe. Sure, my statement can be seen as an unfair generalisation. But isn't that warranted to some extent in this case.
Said ralley happens to be in Dresden, not Hamburg, for starters. If you list the places the most appalling neo-nazi crimes of the last decade occured you get a rather comprehensive travel guide to rural Saxony.
And anecdotal evidence goes both ways. I know plenty of people who left rural Saxony for reasons related to the local bigotry.

You don't seem to be contesting my claim that Saxony is in a special position regarding bigotry. We apparently merely disagree on whether that is "Saxon" or rather random.
I take it you are arguing it's about economic issues etc. Feel free to elaborate.
My claim remains the same: Rural Saxony has a bigoted culture and severe deficiancy in terms of civic culture and appreciation of civil liberties. CDU rule is at the very least not helping with that. It's probably even furthering it. Of course i'd be ready to extend the courtesy of that somewhat meanish accusation to Western Pommeria, the Bauland, parts of rural Frankonia etc.
Please don't think this is some anti-east thing.

But, well, as i said: Feel free to specualte on why Saxony (and Brandenburg) excell in neo-nazi crime. I can see the "economy" argument in Brandenburg's case, but regarding Saxony it's not exactly convincing me.

Yes.

I agree, btw.

 

[Japanrocks12]

Whenever I think of German neo-Nazis, I always think of the German Hell's Angels and this story:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ls-Angels-bikers-then-flees-on-bulldozer.html

German throws puppy at Hells Angels bikers then flees on bulldozer
A German student created a major traffic jam in Bavaria when he made a rude gesture at a group of Hells Angels, hurled a puppy at them and then escaped on a stolen bulldozer.

'What motivated him to throw a puppy at the Hell's Angels is currently unclear,' said a spokesman for local police.

The 26-year-old drove into the grounds of the motorcycle gang members' clubhouse north of Munich on Sunday, according to reports in local media.

The young man, who was not identified, then dropped his pants, threw the puppy, and then fled.

After making his getaway, he stole the bulldozer from a construction site, and attempted to drive it to Munich. However, it was not fast enough, and his snail-like pace caused a 3-mile traffic jam near the southern town of Allershausen, according to a report in the English-language newspaper The Local, which cited the daily tz.

He then fled to his home nearby where he was apprehended by the police.

"What motivated him to throw a puppy at the Hell's Angels is currently unclear," said a spokesman for local police. He said the student had lately been suffering from depression.